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Very difficult to judge this, considering the profound differences between Roman Catholic and mainline Protestant theologies of worship. What sounds like something bordering on liturgiolatry from a mainline Protestant perspective could also very well sound like good, responsible leadership of the entire parish by the parish priest and a policy based on sound Roman Catholic theology of the mass and Christian obligation. Interesting how two perspectives on the same news story can vary so significantly. So StarWoman and I, who agree on so much else, would probably come down on completely different sides of this issue. All very interesting.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo
by Mahanoy on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 08:31:08 PM PDT
that sounds like an interesting discussion to have, Mahanoy.
Might be a good topic for one of those "lots of diaries on the same topic" things we've had a few of. (I know Fleetguy had a term for that, but I can't recall it.)
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
by StarWoman on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 08:48:48 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
by pastordan on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 09:08:41 PM PDT
Diaries as that which concerns us ultimately. Sounds about right.
(Hear that? That's old Paul Tillich spinning round and round...)
by Mahanoy on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 09:53:26 PM PDT
::: Wolfie lopes far away before Dan can pelt him with Immodium tablets :::
by The Werewolf Prophet on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 05:55:10 PM PDT
by pastordan on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:42:13 AM PDT
But it might make a nice series: "Why I attend worship/mass/services/temple/meeting/etc."
by Mahanoy on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 09:55:06 PM PDT
because I think we've hit the personal connection before, and that won't get us past "what I personally get out of it": but the theological significance of attending worship in the various traditions.
That's one of those things it's easy to miss - like water to a fish, it's a cultural value that's just there in the background.
by StarWoman on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 10:05:41 PM PDT
and I like where your head's at! :) Yes, that's a much better angle - theological significance rather than personal reasons. Excellent.
by Mahanoy on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 08:13:04 AM PDT
by pastordan on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 06:39:24 AM PDT
And you'd never go if it wasn't your duty, right? :)
by Mahanoy on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 08:13:29 AM PDT
is that I did seek the job out...
by pastordan on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 08:29:20 AM PDT
...over at our UU church.
The custom has been that the titles of the sermons are published in the newsletter, which comes out the first of the month. People attend, or don't attend, on the basis of whether or not they like the topic. (Yes. We're Unitarian that way.)
Next week, after two years with interim ministers, our new settled minister arrives. And he's got a very different idea about this. Apparently, he's got the heretical idea that we don't get to know the subjects in advance -- because showing up to church isn't about the lecture topic, but about being with your spiritual community! (I know! The man's a raving apostate!)
He seems to think that topic shopping is BAD; and the topic of the sermon is somewhat secondary to the point of the whole Sunday worship exercise. We should all come to church, y'no, because it's where we belong on Sundays. Hmm.....
The first newsletter without sermon topics went out yesterday. We on the Sunday Services Committee are holding our collective breath. We're pretty sure there's going to be a fair amount of bitching, especially from the oldtimers who like the way it was, and want to have more control over their worship experience.
But I gotta like the way this new guy is making is presence felt....
by Mrs Robinson on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 08:16:19 PM PDT
Interesting tactic, too. I had a professor in seminary who always told us there is only one hard and fast rule to remember during your first year in the parish: Never take the plow out of the barn for the first year. Just let things go right along until you figure everything out, then you can start changing things.
He made some exceptions - sacrificing goats on the altar after blessing bread and wine generally got the nod for immediate cessation, but other than that, the plow stays in the barn.
Good luck with that tomorrow!
by Mahanoy on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 08:29:52 PM PDT
...during his candidating visit last spring.
He told the SS committee that there were two schools of thought -- the "don't take the plow out" school you mention, and another one that had the exact opposite take ("Make your presence known with authority!")
He's a longtime psychiatrist who went back to seminary at midlife; and we're his very first church. So, at this stage of his career, he's sort of agnostic on this point. He told us that he wasn't sure which school he followed, but was hoping to find a middle path that was long on observation, but also gave us just enough challenge to grow.
I actually think this new "no topic announcments" rule hits the mark about right -- as long as this is the last change he tries to foist on us for at least a couple months. One thing at a time, we can do.
Or two. He also warned the whole congregation that he's going to talk about God. Different UU congregations have different opinions about this; but ours has always been strongly humanist and more determinedly anti-God Talk than many. So it's going to be interesting to see how that goes down, too.
Me, I'm going to be fine with it.
by Mrs Robinson on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 08:54:18 PM PDT
Sometimes folks like him import techniques from their former profession that don't really work in a congregation.
Or, he could be brilliant. You just never can tell.
by pastordan on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 08:46:20 AM PDT
When I was a kid, my dad, a Lutheran minister, always wrote his sermons at the last minute on Saturday afternoons. Of course, since he was following the Standard Lectionary, he could well have chosen topics ahead of time, but Saturday was when he did the actual drafting of the sermon. And sometimes early early Sunday morning.
He used to do the same thing choosing hymns, but the church organist for some reason rebelled at not knowing what she was going to play until just before the service. That was when Dad adopted the practice of plotting out the hymns for the whole year in advance.
"All the World's a Stage and Everyone's a Critic" -- Mervyn Alquist
by quarkstomper on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 09:14:37 PM PDT
I don't blame the organist one bit. Besides, the hymns in the LBW are arranged by season, so it's not like he'd be hindered by mapping them out in advance.
Suzanne holds the mirror.
by hamletta on Sun Sep 02, 2007 at 01:09:19 PM PDT
As a parent of a child who attends a school that has a very, very similar requirement, I'm thinking that Dan's diary is more indicative of not "getting it" from this perspective - because it is as much part of our theology as not, and it's not something that's shared with others.
Oh - and at this parish, the liturgy is amazing, the homilists are excellent, the community is warm and welcoming - and there's still theological reasons for saying that if one doesn't attend Mass, the (very substantial) discount will not be available.
This is Oregon - it's unbelievably beautiful up here, and I totally understand not wanting to be trapped in a building on Saturday evening/Sunday morning, even for the most amazing liturgy in the world. Doesn't matter - it's part of our theology that we go, we participate in the sacrifice/meal of the Mass, and we pass along the faith within our families and communities by doing so.
And perhaps ... if it's "difficult to judge" it might mean that it's something that shouldn't have judgment passed upon it by those who aren't part of it. That sounds snarkier than I intended, and I apologize (really tired...) - but to me we're treading close to the argument of some months back about how 'wrong' Catholics are because we don't practice an open table at Eucharist. These are theological differences, not political perspectives.
"I like to go into Marshall Field's in Chicago just to see all the things there are in the world that I do not want." M. Madeleva, C.S.C.
by paxpdx on Fri Aug 31, 2007 at 10:43:25 PM PDT
I was responding not to the Catholic but to the Episcopalian citing the survey statistics. My point is simply that if people don't understand why they're there, it's incumbent on the church to educate them. That's what I do, and it seems to work.
I'm actually thinking of introducing an occasional "Stump the Chump" segment to worship. The church I served in Atlanta did this with the confirmands - they'd ask a question, and the pastor would answer it right after the sermon. They often asked great questions, and occasionally the adults would put them up to asking even better ones.
by pastordan on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 06:47:53 AM PDT
Maybe I should have coffee on hand when I read, never mind the hour. I figured Mrs. P would go after you if she thought there was an issue.
Love the "stump the chump" idea. We do something sort of like that with the religious ed class, and also a fun "ask anything" session. Father is "unavoidably away" one week for the class, and we toss out the agenda and open the floor for questions.
Yes - I think there's a whole lot of education that could go on around the "Mass obligation" question. I know that the letter that came home to families a few weeks ago at Kid Pax's school really pissed off a bunch of people, while last year's letter didn't do that at all. There's a few reasons for that - the biggest one being the priest's insane summer schedule & lack of reading what he wrote carefully, frankly. It irritated me, mostly because I didn't think it shed light on why being there matters.
(And really, it needed to be directed to a handful of people, not to all ~100 families who get the parish rate, but that's a different issue...)
by paxpdx on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 07:24:52 AM PDT
The pastor at a church near me has a very jolly, interactive style, and he frequently leads off his sermons by asking a question to stump the congregation.
I attended mass there on the first Sunday of Lent last year, and he started his sermon by looking rather grim, taking hold of his lectern, and saying something like the following, in a very serious voice:
Do you all know what happened last week? Did you hear? Somebody knew the answer to my question! And then, somebody else told the punchline to my joke! That's it. No more Mister Nice Guy. No more jokes. My sermons will be at least 45 minutes long this Lent. You people are going to pray for Easter!
Do you all know what happened last week? Did you hear? Somebody knew the answer to my question! And then, somebody else told the punchline to my joke!
That's it. No more Mister Nice Guy. No more jokes. My sermons will be at least 45 minutes long this Lent. You people are going to pray for Easter!
:giggle: (He was kidding, of course.)
by StarWoman on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 07:50:10 AM PDT
Excellent idea. Can theologians play??
by Mahanoy on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 08:22:52 AM PDT
I think my use of "judging" language wasn't the best choice. I have absolutely no personal interest in this issue - no "dog in the hunt" - because it's not my tradition and I don't have any children in a Catholic parish school. I was drawing attention to the fact that Protestants probably aren't understanding this issue from anything even approaching a Catholic perspective because the respective theologies at work are so completely different.
The more I think about it, the more I agree that we should do some sort of worship diary series, especially one that is as broad as possible.
by Mahanoy on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 08:19:16 AM PDT
idea. Is there a co-created diary coming up? I'd love to be reading that and participating in what conversation follows.
Festina Lente - make haste slowly
by Festina Lente on Sat Sep 01, 2007 at 06:26:08 AM PDT
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