Street Prophets

The Clash

Mon Feb 06, 2006 at 11:52:31 AM PDT

Over at Big Orange, they're going rounds about the prophet cartoons story. Soj argued the other day - citing this blog in agreement - that the controversy has been kept alive in large part by the Saudi government in order to distract from domestic issues.

MarkinSanFran responded with Juan Cole, who believes that the outrage is more of a grassroots affair. Soj responds here, asking why the reaction has been so delayed.

Why does this matter? Commentators across the map are noticing the same things: the vitriol (and now violence) of the protests, the tenuousness of Muslim claims to outrage, and the contrast between intellectually free-wheeling democracies in the West and some of the anti-democratic tendecies of Muslim (usually Arab) nations. This is, most agree, a fundamental clash of values.

More in the extended.

  • ::
Trouble is, no one can quite pin down which values. Obviously, this is an enormously explosive situation. No one knows quite where it's headed, which spooks a lot of people. But the question is: is this about the irrationality of religion?

Not a single item in our trillion-dollar arsenal can compare with the genius of the suicide bomber -- the breakthrough weapon of our time. . . . We refuse to comprehend the suicide bomber's soul -- even though today's wars are contests of souls, and belief is our enemy's ultimate order of battle. We write off the suicide bomber as a criminal, a wanton butcher, a terrorist. Yet, within his spiritual universe, he's more heroic than the American soldier who throws himself atop a grenade to spare his comrades: He isn't merely protecting other men, but defending his god. . . .

Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.

...

A dangerous asymmetry exists in the type of minds working the problem of Islamist terrorism in our government and society. On average, the "experts" to whom we are conditioned to listen have a secular mentality (even if they go to church or synagogue from habit). And it is a very rare secular mind that can comprehend religious passion -- it's like asking a blind man to describe the colors of fire. . . .

Those who feel no vital faith cannot comprehend faith's power. A man or woman who has never been intoxicated by belief will default to mirror-imaging when asked to describe terror's roots. He who has never experienced a soul-shaking glimpse of the divine inevitably explains religion-driven suicide bombers in terms of a lack of economic opportunity or social humiliation. But the enemies we face are burning with belief, on fire with their vision of an immanent, angry god. Our intelligentsia is less equipped to understand such men than our satellites are to find them.

All of our technologies and comforting theories are confounded by the strength of the soul ablaze with faith.

Or is it about culture and religion?

The West's current struggle with a murderous global Sunni Muslim insurgency and the threat of a nuclear-armed theocracy in Iran makes it clear that it's no longer possible to overlook the culture of intolerance, hatred and xenophobia that permeates the Islamic world. The hard work of rooting those things out will have to be done by honest Muslim leaders and intellectuals willing to retrace their tradition's steps and do the intellectual heavy lifting that participation in the modern world requires. They won't be helped, however, if Western governments continue to pander to Islamic sensitivity while looking away from violent Islamic intolerance. They won't be helped by European diplomats and officials who continue to ignore the officially sanctioned hate regularly directed at Jews by the Mideast's government-controlled media, while commiserating with Muslims offended by a few cartoons in the West's free news media.

The decent respect for the opinions of others that life in modern, pluralistic societies requires is not a form of relativism. It will not do, as Isaiah Berlin once put it, to say, "I believe in kindness and you believe in concentration camps" and let's leave it at that.

The proof of this is written in the facts on the ground. Across the United States, there are Saudi-funded mosques, teaching that nation's particularly intolerant brand of Islam. There are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia; they're against the law. In Iraq on Friday, the country's dwindling community of Chaldean Catholics prepared for more of the terrorist attacks that have become routine; there were no reported attacks on Muslims in any of the countries where the Danish caricatures were republished. Muslims in those places may have been affronted, but they are not in fear for their lives. No Western leader claims that Ferdinand and Isabella did not expel the Moors from Spain or that there were no massacres during the Crusades. If they did, they'd be howled off the podium and ridiculed into obscurity. The president of theocratic Iran claims that there was no Holocaust and people across the Islamic world applaud.

The European media may have behaved in a provocative fashion this week, but it was provocation in a good cause. The Western governments -- ever mindful of their commercial interests -- aren't required to endorse what their press has done, but they do nobody a favor when they apologize for it.

Or is it about the politicization of religion and culture in an increasingly inter-connected world?

But even people who hold fast to the bedrock principles of liberal democracy may feel the exasperating hand of a darker manipulation here. Because when forced to an impasse, the cartoon battle becomes exactly what ideologues in both worlds would like it to be: a proxy for the Clash of Civilizations.

Linking the far poles of civilization has always had its perils, not least of which is the temptation to involve oneself intimately in the affairs of people far away. It's been less than 150 years since the first telegraph cable was stretched across the Atlantic, making it possible for people in New York to know that people in London were cheesed off about something utterly trifling and parochial -- and vice versa. It's been less than a century and a half since the beginnings of a world that is now instantly connected, in which a contretemps in Denmark can be quickly scaled up into a rhetorical world war. It's odd, and rather sad, how little we've learned about the way barroom brawls spiral into street riots, about the ancient emotional mechanics that still govern the most important conversations of humanity.

Religious fundamentalism forced the issue; political fundamentalism inflamed it. An apology for giving offense is now capitulation to religious tyranny; the basic instinct of moderation is equated with cowardice. A little ink on paper is inflated to proof of a basic cultural incompatibility. So political leaders here speak of "the long war," a conflict with no sign of hope on the horizon between East and West. Now, rather absurdly, these cartoons may become part of the intellectual hardening of thought that will sustain the idea, on both sides of the cultural divide.

Or is there something peculiar to the Muslim faith that spawns intolerance and fanaticism, as some have suggested?

I won't link to that last perspective, which ought to indicate my assessment.

The rest of the opinions floated above have points worth considering, though I don't necessarily agree with them. It's beyond argument, I think, to say that Europe and the Arab lands took very different paths in their development, leaving each with values that are sometimes difficult to reconcile with one another. But the same could be said of East Asia, Africa and to some extent Latin America. Each region has at various times exploded against Western European values, often violently. Those cultural conflicts often mask economic disagreements as well. For example: Japan, it was claimed by the US after Pearl Harbor, was home to a warlike and vicious race opposed to democracy, freedom, Mom and apple pie. In reality, Japan was a budding parliamentary democracy hijacked by a military junta attempting to establish colonial control over Asia - much as, erm, Western democracies had. So for six years, the Japanese were the enemies of Western Civilization, then for another twenty, a client state. Now they're one of our closest allies and trading partners. What changed? Not much, other than that the strategic interests of the two nations realigned.

There is no reason to believe that the same thing could not happen in the Middle East. It's true that there's always been bad blood between Europe and Arab nations, but there's been bad blood between France and Germany for almost as long, and they got over it.

Nor do I put much stock in the religious aspect. The only specifically religious part to this story is the prohibition on images of Muhammed (PBUH). There's more to it than that, since Islam is meant to champion the Arab people as much as their religious philosophy. But from the perspective of faith as such, this is a very flat story indeed.

I'm surprised that almost none of the commenters I've read have picked up on some obvious angles. First of all, it needs to be said - stipulating Cole's point that the demonstrations started in Europe, not Saudi Arabia - that the lack of democracy in the countries where the riots have been taking place should not be put down to Islamic hypocrisy. Rather, it's a distorting factor. Good, bad or indifferent, we simply don't know how the clash would play out were the protestors to have outlets for their discontent. It's impossible to say. Some folks will no doubt try to make the demonstrators out to be chronically angry Arabs agitating for the destruction of Israel and Western values. Those perspectives are often borderline racist - at best - and typically reflect some other ax to grind. Or, as the Washington Post puts it, "the cartoon battle becomes exactly what ideologues in both worlds would like it to be: a proxy for the Clash of Civilizations."

That proxy battle is abhorrent. What, was Bush not kidding when he spoke of a "crusade" against terrorism? I don't know about you, but I'm not okay on re-fighting the battles of the 11th Century. And I simply refuse to believe that 1 billion people are violent fanatics or bloodthirsty savages.

Second, if this is indeed an essentially street-level phenomenon - perhaps egged on by opportunistic governments - it should tell us that those anti-democratic regimes mentioned above don't really have their populaces under full control. It's simply not within the realm of credibility that shaky governments in Gaza, Jordan, or Lebanon would intentionally allow mob scenes if they thought they could bring them under control.

And last, a point that perhaps is so obvious that it goes unsaid: Muslims and particularly Arabs have a lot to be pissed about these days. The war in Iraq has added fuel to every dark fire in the Middle East. People who were inclined to see their culture as disrespected, their lives devalued, their territory violated, and their oil coveted, have been given a hard shove down the slope of paranoia. Any middling student of psychology could tell you that given the deep anger and resentment felt among Muslims toward the West, the culture would lash out at the first available target. From our perspective, Denmark is a small, somewhat goofy, basically neutral country. But for the protestors, it's a symbol of a greater whole: years of oppression, hostility and abuse. The defenders of the "freedom of speech" misunderstand what's at stake, as do those who want to plump up an epic battle of values. While the vessel for this conflict may be cultural, it is at its heart about the same thing that most cultural conflicts are about: power, and who's got it.

Reactionary regimes like Saudi Arabia will have to clean up their hands if they are to remain politically and economically connected to the West. Ditto Iran and Hamas. The world community won't abide Holocaust deniers or those who would wipe out the state of Israel. But as Dr. King said, "violence is the language of the unheard." These riots, I believe, should be telling us that there are a whole lot of people in the Muslim world who feel that their voices have not been heard.


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  • No, I do NOT misunderstand (0 / 0)

    From our perspective, Denmark is a small, somewhat goofy, basically neutral country. But for the protestors, it's a symbol of a greater whole: years of oppression, hostility and abuse. The defenders of the "freedom of speech" misunderstand what's at stake, as do those who want to plump up an epic battle of values. While the vessel for this conflict may be cultural, it is at its heart about the same thing that most cultural conflicts are about: power, and who's got it.

    I do not misunderstand what is at stake -- I reject the rationale behind it. I have already posted my reasons why.

    • Trying to draw a fine line. (0 / 0)

      The problem is trying to draw a line between what is hate speech and incitement, and legitimate criticism. It's a bit of a cliche, but it's true to say that if these were caricatures of Rabbis eating Christian babies or somesuch, we wouldn't be talking about freedom of speech, and the prosecutions would already have begun. That's because we understand that sometimes such speech has other purposes, and sometimes it's a justification for rascism and legitimising that rascism.

      Are attacks on Islam legitimate and on Judaism not? We take Judaism as a special case because of the lamentable history of anti-Semitism in Europe, but these days Muslims find themselves open to rascism and religious hatred, why would we deny them the same protections we give to Jews?
      These cartoons were nothing more than socially approved rascism, and I can't bring myself to defend that under the auspices of free speech.

      "If God is, as they say, homophobic, I would not worship that God." -Archbishop Desmond Tutu

      by Expat Briton on Mon Feb 06, 2006 at 12:48:47 PM PDT

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      • Speech invariably offends. (0 / 0)

        Sometimes it offends because it is evil and spiteful, sometimes it offends because it is truth being told to people who do not want to hear it. The problem is that even when it is truth, you will find people who object to it on the grounds that it is evil and spiteful.

        You can't truly draw a working line. You have to let it all in, or let none of it in. If you choose the latter, then the only honest thing to do is abandon all pretense of open dialog whatsoever.

        • This is just untrue. (0 / 0)

          To use the now classic example, what of the man who shouts "fire," in a crowded theatre? You can't let all of it in, because letting all of it in leads to people getting hurt. Heck, we don't complain (often) about the FCC dictating what can and cannot be shown on network television, because we accept that some things are inappropriate.

          "If God is, as they say, homophobic, I would not worship that God." -Archbishop Desmond Tutu

          by Expat Briton on Mon Feb 06, 2006 at 01:13:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • Yelling "Fire" is not political speech. (0 / 0)

            Yelling "Fire" in a crowded theatre when there is no fire is a deliberate incitement to panic and poses an immediate threat of causing harm to the people in the theatre in their rush to get out.

            Inciting people to riot via speech is also not protected for the same reason -- immediate threat of causing harm.

            However, (in the U.S. at any rate) printing and distributing a pamphlet describing African Americans as a lesser, mongoloid race (the KKK) or accusing the Catholic Church of being behind the assassination of John F. Kennedy and the training of Adolph Hitler (the Alamo Church Foundation) is protected speech.  It is even legal (I believe, I'm not entirely sure) to advocate ethnic cleansing so long as you do not do so in a way that can be interpreted as an exhortation to go forth and do it right this minute.

            I had a professor who liked to use the example of two speeches: one says "we must overthrow the US Government in a bloody revolution!" and the other says the same thing, but adds "and I have guns in the back! Let's go!"  The first is protected speech, the second is not.

            • Actually, the example (0 / 0)

              of yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater comes from a concurring opinion of Oliver Wendell Holmes on a 1st Amendment case, and his example was not limited to when there was no fire.

              Yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater that is on fire does not induce an orderly departure from the theater:  it induces panic, in which people are harmed when they try to flee the threat, egged on by the cry "FIRE!"

              The question is one of intent, and the issue here is murky, at best.  The more salient issue is:  was this worth it?

              Riots and shootings and people dying, all for some cartoons?  Not to say a government should have censored them, but surely "Western ideals of expression" have some room in them for suppression of inappropriate images.  After all, while we permit the publication of naked bodies having sex (we call it "porn"), we don't publish it in newspapers.  And try to get a picture published in a newspaper of someone injured by a missile attack, or of the body parts left behind after a IED explosion.

              We suppress certain images all the time, in other words.  Some we circulate privately, or at least in as limited a way as possible (porn), others we barely circulate at all (war photos).

              The question is:  was it irresponsible to circulate these cartoons?  In almost every country where they have been published, even simply as news content now, there have been either demonstrations (New Zealand) or riots (Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.).

              • You can add the US to the list. (0 / 0)

                Just heard on NPR this morning that the Philly Inquirer got picketed by groups upset that the paper ran the "bomb" cartoon on Saturday.  Apparently, much lower key than in some other parts of the world.
              • If a cartoon drives a man to violence (0 / 0)

                the problem is not with the cartoon.

                If a cartoon drives a nation to violence, the problem is still not with the cartoon.

                If a newspaper has to be afraid of how people will react to editorial content, then I ask you: what is the point of publishing editorial content at all?

                If opinions are so fucking dangerous, perhaps we ought to have no opinions whatsoever.

                Or maybe we could make a list of the people who are allowed to have opinions, and make sure that list contains only the names of people who we are sure will agree with us, or at least not say anything mean.

    • Mohammed, PBUH, (0 / 0)

      How about "EVERYBODY, PBUT" (Peace be upon them?)

      Don't we ALL deserve peace? why peace upon Mohammed and war on me?

      • asdf (0 / 0)

        It's just a traditional statement of respect. Of course, peace to all.
      • wishing peace (0 / 0)

        As Elizabeth D said, it's a traditional phrase used with Muhammad and with all other prophets (including Jesus) (peace be upon them).

        When Muslims greet each other, they say "As-salaamu alaykum" which means "Peace be unto you".

        So we say it to each other when we meet, and we invoke it also upon special people we are referring to who are not present.

        I hope this helps clarify things.

        "Riches does not mean having a great amount of property, but riches is self-contentment." (Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him)

        by lauramp on Mon Feb 06, 2006 at 05:31:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  • asdf (0 / 0)

    I've watched this story with a feeling that I don't really have a dog in this fight. I am not sure this is really a free speech issue at all (in the legal sense; someone correct me if I am wrong) over the cartoons, but a propriety/judgment issue. We can say "they have the legal right to print such a cartoon" and at the same time say "I think this was a foolish and disrespectful thing to do." Similarly we can say "Muslims have a right to be angry and demonstrate" and at the same time say "I think this is a foolish and inessential thing to riot over." There is a real and complex problem, but the cartoon issue seems like its froth; its real substance is harder for most people to know how to face and make change.

    I agree it does not seem so much about religion as about cultural conflict, about two groups justifiably afraid of each other and acting on that poorly.

  • Robert Fisk has an essay on the subject (0 / 0)

    today on CounterPunch:  Don't Be Fooled, This Isn't an Issue of Islam versus Secularism.  Mr. Fisk has lived in the region for a long time and has long experience reporting on events in the Islamic world.

    Here is a bit of it:

    So let's start off with the Department of Home Truths. This is not an issue of secularism versus Islam. For Muslims, the Prophet is the man who received divine words directly from God. We see our prophets as faintly historical figures, at odds with our high-tech human rights, almost cariacatures of themselves. The fact is that Muslims live their religion. We do not. They have kept their faith through innumerable historical vicissitudes. We have lost our faith ever since Matthew Arnold wrote about the sea's "long, withdrawing roar". That's why we talk about "the West versus Islam" rather than "Christians versus Islam"--because there aren't an awful lot of Christians left in Europe. There is no way we can get round this by setting up all the other world religions and asking why we are not allowed to make fun of Mohamed.

    Besides, we can exercise our own hypocrisy over religious feelings. I happen to remember how, more than a decade ago, a film called The Last Temptation of Christ showed Jesus making love to a woman. In Paris, someone set fire to the cinema showing the movie, killing a young man. I also happen to remember a US university which invited me to give a lecture three years ago. I did. It was entitled "September 11, 2001: ask who did it but, for God's sake, don't ask why". When I arrived, I found that the university had deleted the phrase "for God's sake" because "we didn't want to offend certain sensibilities". Ah-ha, so we have "sensibilities" too.

    Pastordan, I share your view that 1 billion people are not likely to be bloodthirsty fanatics.  The Muslim people I have been privileged to know have been as spiritually connected and peaceful as can be.  I have an aversion to demonizing a whole people.  As I have posted before, I was once married to the only child of two Auschwitz survivors and have heard first hand accounts of where that kind of thinking leads.  We don't want to go there.  We don't want to go there.

  • "Free Speech" is a smoke screen here (0 / 0)

    The original cartoons were published four months ago and in the interim, Danish Imams added three more *very* offensive ones that the paper never possessed or published, then circulated them all in a pamphlet throughout the Middle East.

    But who funds the Imams ?

    Saudi Arabia

    Why ?

    What better way to keep your people from truly understanding just how much wealth you have and how little you care about their day-to-day lives that to create the ultimate strawman - the Great Satan (the USA) - and then keep them inflammed and focused elsewhere ! Islam is just a tool callously used by the House of Saud, exactly like Christianity is used here in America by the Bush Dynasty.

    • Hmm... (0 / 0)

      According to Juan Cole:

      It is being alleged in some quarters that the controversy over the Danish caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad is somehow artificial or whipped up months later by the Saudis. This is not true. The controversy began in Denmark itself among the 180,000 Danish Muslims. It was taken up by the ambassadors of Muslim states in Copenhagen. Then the Egyptian foreign minister began making a big deal of it, as did Islamist parties in Turkey and Pakistan. The crisis has unfolded along precisely the sort of networks one would have expected, and become intertwined with all the post-colonial crises of the region, from the foreign military occupation of Iraq to the new instability in Syria and Lebanon.

      I would expect that he knows what he's talking about, but then again, he - like all of us - is relying on the information available to him.

      Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle. -Philo of Alexandria

      by vansterdam on Mon Feb 06, 2006 at 02:28:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • They're both wrong. (0 / 0)

        OK, I'm going to quote myself and re-post two comments I've made in a couple of the nine-million threads on this issue over at EuroTrib.  Juan Cole first:

        everyone has their boogeyman, or, er, preferred context.  One guy says Saudi, another Egypt, another says it's all the USA's fault.  Point is, I think Cole is wrong here, and it's a mistake to lay the blame at any single country's door.  Every country in the region has some "reason" to have either encouraged outrage over the cartoons or at least tolerated it.

        I mean, maybe Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Abul Gheit tried to distract people from the elections by talking about the cartoons, but it sure as hell didn't work.  I went back and checked old newspapers, just to be sure, and I mean the Arabic ones too, not just the insipid English paper.  All of November and early December were totally dominated by election news here, as well as the usual simpering press reports of Mubarak's message to the Barcelona conference on something-or-other...  

        I do remember hearing something about the cartoons way back then, but I would hardly categorize it as a major distraction.  It was a blip.  Egypt had six weeks of parliamentary elections, with voting roughly every six days, and every single round of voting was increasingly more violent.  That was the news, even in the government papers that blamed all the violence on the Brotherhood.  Nobody was paying attention to anything else.

        Although the Egyptian parliament's involvement is unique, Egypt didn't join in the boycott until well after the Gulf states did so, and there has been exactly one protest, which was yesterday and nowhere near the Danish and Norwegian embassies.

        But Cole is spot on with his next statement:

        Most of the caricature protests are a mixture of local politics and standard post-colonial anti-imperialism.

        Yep.

        In agreeing with Cole's statement, I should clarify that in my view "standard post-colonial anti-imperialism" need not specifically refer to Denmark and/or Norway's own (non-existent?) colonial or imperialist histories, per se, but instead refers to The West, of which Denmark and Norway are symbols in this particular instance.

        As for the Saudi claim, which I think is just as absurd, I address that in this thread:

        I carry no brief for the Saudi government.  I'm just saying... the Hajj stampede was two weeks before the boycott started.  According to the wikipedia timeline, this event was much more proximate to the start of the boycott:

        January 23:    The Danish government delivers its offical response to the UN Special Rapporteurs' request of 24 November 2005.

        That response was to this request:

        November 24:    The United Nations Special Rapporteur on freedom of religion or belief and Special Rapporteur on contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance request the Permanent Danish Mission to the UN to deliver their observations of the case.

        What did the Danish response say?  Well, we can find it here (.pdf document).  It's 10 pages long, and only the first page and a half deal with the cartoons, concluding with this:

        Based on an overall assessment of the article in Jyllandsposten, including the twelve cartoons, the Regional Public Prosecutor does not find that there is a reasonable suspicion that a criminal offence indictable by the state has been committed. In his decision the Regional Public Prosecutor states that he attaches importance to the fact that the article in question concerns a subject of public interest, which means that there is an extended access to make statements without these statements constituting a criminal offence. Furthermore, according to the Danish case law f.i. journalists have extended editorial freedom, when it comes to subjects of public interest. For these reasons the Regional Public Prosecutor finds no basis for concluding that the content of the article constitutes an offence under section 140 or section 266b of the Criminal Code.

        The other eight-and-a-half pages focus on religious tolerance and the integration of immigrants into Danish society, starting with this:

        The Government is focusing strongly on ensuring a society with mutual respect and shared democratic values. The Danish democracy is by its very nature inclusive to all cultures and religions.

        It paints a fairly positive picture of the Danish government's efforts to improve relations with the Muslim community and aid integration of Muslim immigrants.  I haven't been to Denmark, so I have no idea how accurately the document portrays reality.

        All I'm saying is that, since this response to a UN query over the cartoons was delivered three days before the boycott started, isn't it possible that the timing of the boycott has something to do with whether Muslim states found the response satisfactory?

        Many commenters and diarists have said that there are many factors contributing to the mess we're all in now.  I wish I could believe it were as simple as a big ol' Saudi conspiracy, but I just don't think it's that simple.

        More on the general issue in another comment.

        "Religion without humanity is a poor human stuff." -- Sojourner Truth

        by the stormy present on Mon Feb 06, 2006 at 03:30:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  • Why do we generalize? (0 / 0)

    There are about a billion Muslem people in this world.  How many riot and kill?

    If it were all of them, then I would not be here typing this right now.

    It is a small fraction, but a small fraction of a billion is still a big number.  Too big.

    What Islam needs is liberalism.

    Some good old fashion seperation of Mosque and State and some real instruction on what Freedom of Speech is.

    I wonder if the Muslims think that the worldwide Christian community is nothing more than a den of bloodthirty fanaticals, cheats and child molestors?  Robertson and Falwell have opened their mouths up too many times and the press harped on and on about the Catholic sex scandals for years and check ou this gem:

    Yesterday:
    Bush introduced Mike and Sharla Hintz, a couple from Clive, whom he said benefited from his tax plan.
    Last year, because of the enhanced the child tax credit, they received an extra $1,600 in their tax refund, Bush said. With other tax cuts in the bill, they saved $2,800 on their income taxes.
    They used the money to buy a wood-burning stove to more efficiently heat their home, made some home improvements and went on a vacation to Minnesota, the president said.
    "Next year, maybe they'll want to come to Texas," Bush quipped.
    Mike Hintz, a First Assembly of God youth pastor, said the tax cuts also gave him additional money to use for health care.
    He said he supports Bush's values.
    "The American people are starting to see what kind of leader President Bush is. People know where he stands," he said.
    "Where we are in this world, with not just the war on terror, but with the war with our culture that's going on, I think we need a man that is going to be in the White House like President Bush, that's going to stand by what he believes.

    and today...
    A Des Moines youth pastor is charged with the sexual exploitation of a child.
    KCCI learned that the married father of four recently turned himself in to Johnston police.
    Rev. Mike Hintz was fired from the First Assembly of God Church, located at 2725 Merle Hay Road, on Oct. 30. Hintz was the youth pastor there for three years.
    Police said he started an affair with a 17-year-old in the church youth group this spring.

  • The language of the heard (0 / 0)

    If the cartoons were meant to demonstrate that there is a strong strain of violent intolerance in Islam, they certainly succeeded.  Are we in the non-Islamic nations to continually check & censor ourselves, & deny our own freedom of speech, on account of a religious taboo? Before September 11 there was the example of Salman Rushdie. The list of western offenses against Islam, both real & imagined, is endless. There will always be something. We have a duty to preserve our open culture. We must never apologize for the rights we embrace & exercise.

    Ironically, September 11 put our freedoms in even greater danger from Christian fundamentalists & our own government, which in turn pose the far greater threats to the Islamic world. It's like there's a sinister alliance between religious fundamentalists around the world to place us all back under the yoke of superstition & sectarian oppression.

    "There ain't no sanity clause." Chico Marx http://wfmu.org/playlists/RX

    by Asbury Park on Mon Feb 06, 2006 at 02:50:12 PM PDT

  • some incoherent thoughts on the subject. (0 / 0)

    I am honestly, truly, really tired of this whole matter and wish it would just go away.  They had a protest here in Cairo yesterday, and there's another one planned for tomorrow, although one of my friends (who's involved with the group organizing it) indicates that even the sponsoring group is conflicted, and many of them aren't happy about the protest.

    Suffice it to say that there is substantial difference of opinion about this among the Egyptians (and Lebanese) I know.

    Since I'm non-religious, it helped me to understand the depth of offense people take over the cartoons by switching to an area where it is possible for me to be offended:  racial stereotypes.  (Actually, I think it could be argued that several of the cartoons are racist, as well as religiously offensive.)

    If my newspaper published a cartoon that I felt used offensive stereotypes to lampoon and vilify black people, for example, I would probably expect the newspaper to (a) know better than to publish it, (b) apologize if it did publish it.  If it didn't apologize, I might consider boycotting the newspaper, and if that didn't work, I might consider boycotting its advertisers.

    Yes, I believe the publication of the cartoons was legal.  But being legal does not make it wise or commendable.  We don't have to do things just because they're legal.

    The cartoons appear to have been published with the express intention of causing outrage in the Danish Muslim community.  That's how a bully behaves.  The newspaper was picking a fight with the Danish Muslim community, and clearly didn't expect the Danish Muslims to call in their big brother for backup.

    Ag, I'm veering onto the free-speech issue, and I don't really think it's about that.  The problem is that both sides are acting like idiots.  The Europeans see it as only a free speech issue, and I think they're wrong.  It's also not simply a matter of religious tolerance...

    The thing that really concerns me is the growing alienation... a friend said to me the other day, "I adore Europe... but why do they hate us?"

    This battle is alienating the very moderates within the Muslim world that the West should be reaching out to.  The fact that it has gone this far should be very frightening, to everyone.

    Ag, I'm running out of steam for this, but have a lot more to say.  It's almost 2 a.m., I need to go to bed.

    I'll pick this up at a later stage.  In the meantime, here are links to some of my earlier comments at ET.

    Re: Denmark Hit by Middle East Boycotts here and here, with recommended reading here.

    Re: I know your gods, and already I don't like them (in response to a diary I didn't much like...)

    Why taunt?

    Re: The Right to Blasphemy

    Voices from Lebanon

    I'd recommend that last one especially.

    "Religion without humanity is a poor human stuff." -- Sojourner Truth

    by the stormy present on Mon Feb 06, 2006 at 04:04:54 PM PDT

    • I disagree (0 / 0)

      I disagree most strongly. For us it has to be a free speech issue before all else. There's no way around it. As soon as you start equivocating & spinning it in some other direction, the free speech is lost. If progressives don't have the spines to defend free speech, who will? I also take issue with your contention that the cartoons were printed mainly to antagonize Muslims. But even if they were... what are you gonna do? Prohibit them?

      "There ain't no sanity clause." Chico Marx http://wfmu.org/playlists/RX

      by Asbury Park on Mon Feb 06, 2006 at 04:59:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • don't put words in my mouth (0 / 0)

        If you don't realize that the very point was to provoke and offend, then you haven't been paying attention.  One of the cartoonists is on record as saying as much.  The editor of the newspaper is on record as saying as much.

        The situation is so much more nuanced than you seem to believe, and failure to acknowledge the context is only contributing to the problem.

        Free speech is not an absolute right.  It must have limits, and if you don't see that, you're delusional.  The "free speech" of Radio Milles Collines in Rwanda involved calling Tutsis "cockroaches" that must be exterminated.  Was that OK with you?  800,000 people were killed.  Free speech "must be the issue before all else"?  I'm afraid not.

        Incitement to violence is not permissible, even in the US.  The UK is considering prosecution of people who held signs at an anti-cartoon rally in London calling for violence against the cartoonists.  The mainstream UK Muslim groups are supporting that move, and say that those who would call for violence are not representative of the vast majority of their community.

        Violence and calls for violence in response to the cartoons are unacceptable.  The burning of embassies is unacceptable.  There are people dead in Afghanistan, and possibly in Turkey, over this, and that's unacceptable.

        But the unacceptability of those violent responses does not retroactively justify the publication of the cartoons, which were offensive, racist and intentionally provocative.

        When speeech is used to demonize and vilify a minority, it might in some countries be legally protected (and might in some countries not be -- the Danish penal code actually does prohibit "ridicul[ing] or insult[ing] the dogmas of worship of any lawfully existing religious community," referenced here [.pdf file]).

        But being legal does not make it right.

        It would probably be legal for a US newspaper to publish Sambo-like caracatures of African-Americans raping white women.  But no responsible newspaper would do so.  Several of these cartoons linked the most holy prophet of Islam with terrorism and violence, thereby indicting the entire religion.  So it's OK to offend and vilify Muslims but not any other minority?  Why is that?

        Interestingly enough, the same newspaper earlier declined to publish several cartoons lampooning Jesus Christ because, according to an e-mail that one of the editors sent to the artist, they "could be offensive" to some readers.

        What disturbs me is that I hear so many Westerners who insist upon talking only about the freedom of speech issue while simultaneously denying that the cartoons are in any way offensive.  I'm sorry, but it's not for us (non-Muslims) to decide what should be offensive to Muslims.  Argue that the speech should be protected regardless of being offensive, but don't try to argue that it's not really offensive on top of that.

        We need to acknowledge the context in which these things were published.  Many Muslims in the world, even moderate and Westernized Muslims, see the so-called "War on Terror" as a smokescreen for a War on Islam.  

        It only compounds that problem when Western free-speech advocates fail to acknowledge the offensiveness of (at least some of) the images, and instead say that anyone who has a problem with it needs to "just get over it."

        These cartoons are offensive not only to the extremists who are burning embassies, but to moderate, rational Muslims as well.  Refusal to acknowledge that risks alienating the very groups that the Western world should be reaching out to, the only people who can defeast extremist Islam.

        At the same time, rioting and burning of embassies only serves to confirm the worst stereotypes portrayed in the cartoons.

        But I am seeing people in the Muslim world (for example, these people reaching out to the West to say, look, this violent behavior of our co-religionists is appalling and embarrassing, and they do not speak for us.

        I have seen far fewer so-called liberals in the West making the same gesture.

        "Religion without humanity is a poor human stuff." -- Sojourner Truth

        by the stormy present on Tue Feb 07, 2006 at 01:29:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  • I'm shape-shifting, gonna be a lightning rod ... (0 / 0)

    I really do not care whether this is a freedom of speech vs. responsible / sensitive speech issue, or whatever ...

    There are lunatics rioting in the streets, burning down embassies, posting death threats - over a few Allah-damned CARTOONS !!!!

    What the hell am I supposed to think about that !?!?!

    FUCK Allah, Mohammed, God, Jesus, Krishna, Buddha and while I'm at it, George Bush ... that shit ain't gonna cut it. At what point do we draw a line and say "no more" ? At what point do we arrest them all & deport the lot of them ? (or in the case of the latter person in my list, impeach ?) At what point do we say "we don't care what your holy book does or does not say, this is unnaceptable HUMAN behavior and will NOT be tolerated" ?

    +++++

    I really don't like myself when I get this way but honestly, folks, I am at the end of my patience ...

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