Street Prophets

Vatican Astronomer: "Creationism is paganism"

Tue May 09, 2006 at 09:31:36 PM PDT

A few years ago I bought a book of writings of St. Thomas Aquinas at a book sale for 25 cents thinking it might be quaint. I didn't read the whole book but I was startled and very impressed by the quality and integrity of this medieval scholar's scientific thinking. Indeed in addition to being one of the greatest of theologians, his thought was a major foundation of western science--he was an incredible rational thinker and without qualification he wanted the truth about nature and not a validation of assumptions. I remember noticing that his curiosity was pure of any idea of divine intervention in natural processes or of somehow "catching God in the act" of creation as "Intelligent Design" wants to (this link explains why, and makes an interesting critique of ID's theological assumptions).
Anyway, I thought of him when I came across this article about a presentation by the Vatican's astronomer.

He described creationism, whose supporters want it taught in schools alongside evolution, as a "kind of paganism" because it harked back to the days of "nature gods" who were responsible for natural events.

Brother Consolmagno argued that the Christian God was a supernatural one, a belief that had led the clergy in the past to become involved in science to seek natural reasons for phenomena such as thunder and lightning, which had been previously attributed to vengeful gods. "Knowledge is dangerous, but so is ignorance. That's why science and religion need to talk to each other," he said.

"Religion needs science to keep it away from superstition and keep it close to reality, to protect it from creationism, which at the end of the day is a kind of paganism - it's turning God into a nature god. And science needs religion in order to have a conscience, to know that, just because something is possible, it may not be a good thing to do."

"Creationism is paganism" seems to be a kind of soundbite way of referring to what Aquinas meant when he wrote that "Creatio non est mutatio"--creation isn't change; God's creation is "ex nihilio," from nothing, and God is the immediate, intimate cause of the being of everything. This is explained very competently at the other link, which elaborates:

God does not act on nature the way a human being might act on an artifact to change it.  Rather, God causes natural beings to be in such a way that they work the way they do.  Hippopotamuses give live birth because that is the sort of thing they are.  Why are there such things as Hippopotamuses?  Well, nature produced them in some way.  What way did nature produce them and why does nature produce things in this way?  It is because God made the whole of nature to operate in this way and produce by her own agency what she produces.  Thus, God remains completely responsible for the being and operation of everything, even though natural beings possess real agency according to the way they were created.


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  • Thanks, Elizabeth (0 / 0)

    This is a great diary.  It helps explain me.  

    "The America I love still exists at the front desks of our public libraries." Kurt Vonnegut

    by cfk on Tue May 09, 2006 at 10:20:37 PM PDT

    • I vehemently disagree..... (0 / 0)


       with the mantra creationism is paganism.I just as vehemently disagree with the notion that evolutionism is Godless.

       Creationism is an attempt to explain the truth of creation while evolution is an attempt to explain the factstion.

        The Bible is clear that nothing is created without God.The truth of intelligent design is a subject for theology and phiosophy.The facts of the orgins of the universe,life, the differences inherent in biological origanisms ..etc is a matter of fact for science.

       I wish scientist would all stick to studying the facts of science and leave the truths of faith alone.

       Vice Versa for theologians trying to discredit scientific thought.

       

      • asdf (0 / 0)

        It's not a "mantra," it's a soundbite way of stating a theological point. "Creationism" as that word is being used here does not mean the theological truth of God's creator role, it means what it means in contemporary society: some sort of literal interpretaion of Genesis, at odds with natural science.

        I wish scientist would all stick to studying the facts of science and leave the truths of faith alone.

        Actually the point here is lack of conflict. The scientist in the article I quote is a religious brother at the Vatican. He's shedding light on Christian truth and its fundamental compatibility with natural science--not arguing against it.

  • Most Pagans ... (0 / 0)

    ... are fully capable of embracing science AND spirituality, and don't have to be either / or about it.

    Most Pagans also reject creationism as SCIENCE. Now, as a myth of the Christian faith, sure - whatever floats your spiritual boat !

    But please, Pope Benedict - don't offload creationism onto Pagans, we've got our OWN creation myths, thin-q-veddy-much !

    • he doesn't mean you (0 / 0)

      His point about a "supernatural" God means God acts from without, not within nature like the gods of Greek or Norse mythology. He's saying "intelligent design" is not good Christian theology--he's not commenting on what pagans or Pagans believe about it. "Intelligent design" is a (flawed) Christian concept, not a pagan one.
      • asdf (0 / 0)

        this comment almost sounds snippy, but I didn't mean it that way!  sorry. :-)
      • He's being derrogatory... (0 / 0)

        ...towards creationists, not towards pagans.

        The Catholic Church is already derrogatory towards pagans.  But this comment isn't a comment about paganism, per se...it's real meaning is to say that Creationism is not a true Christian doctrine, and that those adherents of Creationism are basing their beliefs on superstition and fables rather than on Biblical truth.

        • right, good explanation (0 / 0)

        • Yes, but (0 / 0)

          how many people are going to pay enough attention to separate the two (people not on this board that is) -- so we're being scapegoated, yet again.

          "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson

          by rune on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:42:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • I agree with you. n/t (0 / 0)

            Choo Choo Q. ~Retired locomotive engineer, Author, Wiccan priestess--and snarky were-wolverine since 1999.

            by Quotefiend on Wed May 10, 2006 at 01:06:29 PM PDT

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            • My grove actually (0 / 0)

              discussed this article at Beltane circle this past weekend. One of our members brought a copy of it with her. I've been trying to get over my wish to rant about several "sore points" ever since... sigh

              "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson

              by rune on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:14:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        • Why is he being.... (0 / 0)

          ....derrogatory towards creationists????

           Not every creationist is out to stop the teaching of evolution,the big bang..etc.

           This creationist passed the AP exam for biology.I know the facts of evolution and accept them.I also accept the truth of creationism.

           Instead of being creationists vs evolutionists it should be  tolerant folk vs those intent on imposing their POV on everyone else.There are tolerant folk who believe in creationism and intolerant folk who are evolutionist.

           Keep creationism(including intelligent design) in theology and class and evolution in science class.

           Derrogate creationist if you want,that is fine,but the problem is not creationists.It is small minded conformist on both sides(unfortunately much more on the creationist side than the evolutionist side)..

           I had a teacher who ridiculed anyone who professed a belief in creationism in his class and suggested we take biology with the learning disabled students.I had a teacher who trashed paganism in his history class and taught that Darwin was more evil than Hitler.Both are wrong.

             

      • asdf (0 / 0)

        I realize that you're generalizing, but saying that all Greek and Norse gods act "within nature" is an oversimplification at best.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson

        by rune on Wed May 10, 2006 at 11:48:21 AM PDT

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        • asdf (0 / 0)

          Yeah, I don't mean in general; I had in mind Apollo the sun god and Thor the thunder god, for instance, as examples of "nature gods" in the sense that the article means.
          • Except... (0 / 0)

            I'm not trying to be argumentative, but that is still a huge oversimplification even of those two specific gods. Even "back in the day" that wasn't the be all and end all of their "meaning."

            Which is kind of my original irritation, why even bring paganism into the argument when he obviously doesn't know a damn thing about modern pagan theology and apparently not much about historical paganism either. It's just not a valid comparison.

            "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson

            by rune on Thu May 11, 2006 at 08:14:49 AM PDT

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            • It's a term of art (0 / 0)

              If I understand Catholicism and its theology right it describes a style and approach of thinking. It's been used that way a lot longer than NeoPagans have been around. :P

              http://kraantkraant.blogspot.com/

              by kraant on Thu May 11, 2006 at 08:23:54 AM PDT

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              • Good grief (0 / 0)

                There's no need to be rude.

                "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson

                by rune on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:32:52 AM PDT

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                • how was he rude? (0 / 0)

                  It's true, neo-Pagans took the name of their religion from this term which Christians have been using in the way it's used in the article for close to a couple thousand years.
                  • Name of religion? (0 / 0)

                    I think it's more a description of religion, as non-Abrahamic.  You could be Wiccan or Asatru or a follower of an ancestral faith from any part of the world.  You might describe yourself as pagan, and Christians would describe you as such.  Some folks consider themselves part of the Neo-pagan movement, too.  Just because a Christian talks about beliefs he classifies using that term doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about.

                    "Just because you can explain it doesn't mean it's not still a miracle." - Small Gods by Terry Prachett

                    by lonespark on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:05:32 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    • asdf (0 / 0)

                      I think it's reasonable to say Pagan is frequently used as the name of a religion, though one with various sub-categories (you can be Christian and also Methodist for instance). If it were just an adjective we wouldn't captialize it (and more than once I've seen Pagans here get upset about it not being capitalized). But capitalization makes it clear one is talking about Paganism as a religion rather than paganism in the sense that word has been used in the Christian tradition.
                      • Well (0 / 0)

                        I didn't mean it was just an adjective, but I would say it's less a name people came up with than an existing, vague term they applied.  I'm happy to use it approximately the same vague sense the quoted astronomer seems to be, and follow up by saying his usage is making a ridiculously broad, negative generalization in the course of making a point to fellow Christians.

                        "Just because you can explain it doesn't mean it's not still a miracle." - Small Gods by Terry Prachett

                        by lonespark on Thu May 11, 2006 at 03:09:26 PM PDT

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                  • :p OK, immature then (0 / 0)

                    Sticking your toungue out at someone is still rude around here...

                    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson

                    by rune on Thu May 11, 2006 at 01:53:14 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    • Heh (0 / 0)

                      ":p" = pokey tongue, ie phhhhhhbt!
                      ":P" = tongue out of side of mouth, ie tongue lolling ie hangdog expression....

                      ...

                      :P

                      http://kraantkraant.blogspot.com/

                      by kraant on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:27:34 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      • looks like... (0 / 0)

                        <|;-) (which is as close to "squinty witch" as I can think of)

                        I need to see my opthamologist or at least up the font size in my browser window.

                        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson

                        by rune on Thu May 11, 2006 at 03:43:09 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            • asdf (0 / 0)

              Again, the focus here is not about the specifics of what these gods meant in their original context (much less in modern Pagan theology which is not what he is referring to) but about the way the Christian God's role as Creator differs from any god at all that acts within nature to effect changing phenomena. Again, the point being made in the article is about Christianity, not about paganism.

              In Christian tradition "pagan" means generically "one who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion." It's not a reference to any specific theology or to modern (neo-)Paganism.

              • Trying just once more... (0 / 0)

                Instead of just pointing out that creationism is bad Catholic theology he just had to get that dig in. That's what is annoying about the article.

                Equating paganism with superstition and lack of scientific understanding is a bullshit comparison. It's pop-culture stereotyping -- "Oooo, look a the stupid savages. They think thunder is giants throwing rocks."

                It's derogatory to other religions (as you pointed out above, not just neo-pagans) and to thousands of years of history -- considering that pagans actually did quite a bit for scientific understanding before Jesus came along.

                It doesn't make it OK because he's putting down other Christians with it. Actually that ought to make it worse, but that's just me.

                "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson

                by rune on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:50:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                • asdf (0 / 0)

                  Christians have been using the word "pagan" to mean what I described (non-Christian/non-Jewish) since long, long before modern neo-Pagans adopted it as the name of their religion. The word comes from a Latin word meaning "country-dweller or civilian," in other words the mostly "unsophisticated" rural people who practiced folk religions. Historical pagans probably would not have used the Christian term "pagan" as the name of their religion.

                  Oooo, look a the stupid savages. They think thunder is giants throwing rocks

                  He wasn't saying anything like that. You're seeing a "dig" where none was intended.

            • Thanks, rune! (0 / 0)

              for standing up for the the complexity of polytheist theology.  I know it's not the topic, but it is unfortunate that he resorts to oversimplified, insulting comparisons just to call Christians on their superstition.

              "Just because you can explain it doesn't mean it's not still a miracle." - Small Gods by Terry Prachett

              by lonespark on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:57:28 PM PDT

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      • asdf (0 / 0)

        I can see why Pagans here would be frustrated with this conversation.  Wouldn't be possible to find a term that refers to "bad Christian theology" without resorting to anti-pagan polemic?  I don't expect this of the current pope, but on Street Prophets, where, as far as I can tell, about half of our friends are Pagan, it does seem like a different vocabulary is in order.

        The Wine of Youth ferments this night in the veins of God - Alfred de Musset.

        by dirkster42 on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:41:58 AM PDT

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        • asdf (0 / 0)

          I think it's necessary to bear in mind that neo-Pagans named themselves with a Christian term that often does have negative connotations. While we here at Street Prophets would be wise to avoid this usage of "pagan" because of the potential for misunderstanding, it's not illegitimate for a guy from the Vatican to use this word. He's speaking out of a very long tradition. I think that everyone here can be grown up enough to think about what he means by it rather than assuming it's an insult to them personally.
          • But Elizabeth - (0 / 0)

            Aside from one comment about "not needing to get rude," I don't think the issue here is people taking it as a personal attack.  The issue seems to me to be the question of in what way it's helpful to use another religion as a foil to clarify one's own position.  We (and right now I'm talking from the Christian part of my post-Christian perspective) have a long history of using Judaism as a negative foil to explain the beauty of grace over against legalism.  It got in the way of Jewish-Christian dialogue.  (And because of my family history, it's the main reason I have difficulty with identifying as a Christian, even though it's the religion I am closest to.)  It's well within anyone's rights to say, "whoa" when an argument proceeds using their religion as a negative example.

            The fact that Pagans adopted a Christian term, and often as a deliberate way of saying "No!!!" or even "F*** You!!!" to Christianity, seems a little besides the point here.  It seems to me that here at Street Prophets, the Pagans are more interested in finding common ground than in separatism.

            The Wine of Youth ferments this night in the veins of God - Alfred de Musset.

            by dirkster42 on Thu May 11, 2006 at 02:34:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            • Thank you (0 / 0)

              I'm apparently extremely communication-disfunctional today. Because that is pretty much what I've been trying to say.

              Insulting Creationists by calling them "superstitious" and saying religion needs to be "protected" from them and then labeling that paganism, when in fact faulty Christian theology has NOTHING to do with any sort or definition of paganism. Well, it's dismissive of non-Christians at the least...

              If anybody told me this morning that I'd be practically sticking up for IDers today, I'd have probably smacked them. :-)

              "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson

              by rune on Thu May 11, 2006 at 03:02:53 PM PDT

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              • I really don't think (0 / 0)

                we're sticking up for IDers, by attempting to make the point dirkster eloquently stated above.  ID and "creation science" are an insult to brains God gave us.  Various strain of Creationist belief aren't necessarily, especially since not all faiths make believe in a "supernatural God."

                "Just because you can explain it doesn't mean it's not still a miracle." - Small Gods by Terry Prachett

                by lonespark on Thu May 11, 2006 at 03:13:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            • asdf (0 / 0)

              The issue seems to me to be the question of in what way it's helpful to use another religion as a foil to clarify one's own position

              This is a well stated comment and I take your point, but I don't believe he was probably thinking about contemporary religion, but about the historical paganism that coexisted with early Christianity. Those traditions really don't exist as such anymore. I think his comments make much less sense interpreted in relation to contemporary Paganism, which is a different animal.

      • Intelligent design is correct..... (0 / 0)


           .....as far as I am concerned.The question to me is not whether or not a divine intelligence designed and created the universe.I believe  a divine spirit did just that.

         The question is how.And that is far less important to me than the fact the creator did it.

         

        • asdf (0 / 0)

          The religious brother astronomer in the article also believes God designed and created the universe. But he believes this in a way that is theologically distinct from the "Intelligent Design" movement. Read the link about Thomas Aquinas and you will see what I mean.
    • I prefer creation truths.... (0 / 0)

      Myth is seen as not real, a product of the imagination. The spiritual truth of creation is just as real as the qauntifiable facts of science.One is real in an objective way and the other is real in a subjective way.

       In the end whether everything we know was created in 7 days or billion of years it is no or more less wonderful either way.

      • Factual vs. true. (0 / 0)

        Just because we can explain it, doesn't mean it's not a miracle. (to paraphrase Small Gods)

        "Just because you can explain it doesn't mean it's not still a miracle." - Small Gods by Terry Prachett

        by lonespark on Thu May 11, 2006 at 12:58:32 PM PDT

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  • Yes, very interesting, E. D. (0 / 0)

    For the past year and a half, I have been fascinated by an even further extension of this idea taught in A Course in Miracles--that God did not create (or cause) any of what we perceive as this material world (whether "natural" or "man-made.") --That we are the ones who collude with the ego to create and perpetuate this illusory existence that keeps us separate from God.

    This is not a new or unique idea, of course. It is similar to what is taught by some Eastern religions that in order to attain the highest spiritual levels, one must see the total lack of value in the material world. The ego wants us to believe that this is completely preposterous, and it doesn't take much internal fearmongering to keep us all going along with it until we choose otherwise.

    Your diary just happened to coincide with the past few days' lessons dealing with this idea. Perfect timing.

    "I am too much of a skeptic to deny the possibility of anything." --T.H. Huxley

    by Tejana on Wed May 10, 2006 at 08:18:55 AM PDT

    • Isn't that gnosticism? (0 / 0)

      If I'm right, it's as unorthodox as anything else. The idea that flesh is dirty, the spirit is pure, as common as it is even among many Christians, is not really part of historical Christian doctrine.

      Suzanne holds the mirror.

      by hamletta on Wed May 10, 2006 at 09:11:24 AM PDT

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      • Nothing about judging the body (0 / 0)

        as "dirty" in ACIM! --Just an understanding that the body does not control the mind or spirit, and that it is not the ultimate expression of our (spiritual) existence.

        I'm currently reading Karen Armstrong's The Great Transformation: The Beginning of our Religious Traditions, which puts a whole new light on that "historical Christian doctrine!" That is, its origins go back centuries before Christ.

        "I am too much of a skeptic to deny the possibility of anything." --T.H. Huxley

        by Tejana on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:34:56 PM PDT

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  • My pastor hit on this recently (0 / 0)

    He said Hurricane Katrina is an act of Nature, but people opening their homes and hearts to the people displaced, that was an Act of God.

    Suzanne holds the mirror.

    by hamletta on Wed May 10, 2006 at 09:12:42 AM PDT

    • Exactly right. (0 / 0)

      Which is why I find it hard to believe God gives a damn about "the natural order."

      "I am too much of a skeptic to deny the possibility of anything." --T.H. Huxley

      by Tejana on Wed May 10, 2006 at 02:45:08 PM PDT

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    • Oh... bat guano. (0 / 0)

      That was an act of humanity, of humaneness.  OF decency.  Of real (not conservative) compassion.

      God didn't make my a group of us undertake to house, feed, clothe, furnish and support a family while they got their feet and lives back together after Katrina. It may have been many things, but it really pisses me off to have that act described as something God did.

      Whether it's imitatio Christi or acting for the good, or whatever... it was what we felt we should do.  We.  

      If God wanted to house and feed and help those people, God could have waved his magic wand.

      The light is at home in the darkness. -- Parmenides

      by ogre on Wed May 10, 2006 at 04:38:18 PM PDT

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      • Which is my beef.. (0 / 0)

        About modern religion as a whole. Not only do we use it to justify bad behavior.

        We use it to justify GOOD behavior as well.

        I'm not sure which is worse.

        The future doesn't scare me at all..'cos nothing's like before.

        by Karmakin on Wed May 10, 2006 at 05:33:26 PM PDT

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      • God doesn't have a magic wand. (0 / 0)

        The point in saying that people opening their homes is an act of God isn't that God makes people do things.  It's that God exists in acts of humanity, humaneness, decency.  If, as the Christian scriptures assert, God is love, then God isn't a thing that does things, but a perspective that manifests in relation.  For me, the real mystery is how this works at the cosmic level - because I consider a cosmic element to be part of the definition of God/ess.

        The Wine of Youth ferments this night in the veins of God - Alfred de Musset.

        by dirkster42 on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:34:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  • Great diary, Liz! (0 / 0)

    Thomas knew his Aristotle backwards and forwards, thanks to the Islamic scholars who kept reading Aristotle during the West's "Dark Ages."

    For Thomas, as for Aristotle, God is primarily prima causa, the first cause.  Thomas doesn't like to refer to God in personal, "agential" terms.  God is the first mover, or what he calls the "unmoved mover," that which sets everything else in motion.  But what separates him from the Deists who came later is that, unlike them, Thomas argued that God continues to "govern" the natural order by maintaining the laws of the universe.  Otherwise the world would slide back into utter chaos.

    I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

    by Mahanoy on Wed May 10, 2006 at 09:36:57 AM PDT

    • As usual, (0 / 0)

      you know much more than I do! I did have the thought when I was reading the link about Aquinas and ID that it sounded only a couple steps removed from Deism.
      • You're exactly right (0 / 0)

        It's a very small step from Thomas's Aristotelian cosmology to Deism.  It's just interesting that the Deists never drew on Aquinas for their arguments (he was Catholic, after all!) - they were more interested in Newtonian mechanics than in Aristotle or Thomas.

        I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

        by Mahanoy on Wed May 10, 2006 at 03:42:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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