Street Prophets

What do you call the Deity and why?

Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 12:16:04 PM PDT

I just got this great email from one of my seminary classmates, and I wanted to share it with y'all and hear some of your own thoughts.  (It's not really front-page worthy at this point, so I'm putting it over here.)  
Language creates reality, and that saying applies to religion as much as anything else - perhaps even moreso.  If we only hear masculine pronouns in reference to the deity, pretty soon we start thinking that God has a penis.

One of my favorite theologians, Gordon Kaufman, is a Mennonite theologian teaching at Harvard Divinity School.  In one of his recent books, In Face of Mystery: A Constructive Theology, he argues that all theological language - especially language about God - is "imaginative construction," which is just a fancy way of saying "metaphor."  We assign terms to the Ultimate Reality based on our experience in order to be able to think and speak about That Which Is Greater Than Ourselves.  Even the term "God" does not refer to God in Godself.  It is a human construct designed to give a name to that Reality.  It is useful in terms of worship and theology, as well as personal piety.  But it can also be dangerous.  If we forget that our language about God is metaphorical, we soon begin to think that our constructs are the reality rather than signs pointing to that reality.  Chaos often ensues.  God becomes a straight white male or a black lesbian, an American or a Saudi, a Democrat or a Republican, poor or rich, Jewish or Hindu.

My tradition is Christian, specifically Lutheran.  This tradition influences how I understand and worship the Deity.  I am most comfortable with the name "God" understood as Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  I understand God to be Love, the Creator and Redeemer of the universe, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.  

That is my understanding of God in a nutshell.  Yours will probably be different.  What is your name for the Deity?  How did you come to understand the Deity in that way?



In order to get things moving, and to have a little fun, I'll share the email my seminary classmate sent me.  But first, just one little word of background.

This story is set in first-century Palestine (obviously a time machine is involved at some point before our story begins).  Jesus is speaking with four famous twentieth-century Protestant theologians, each of whom developed a sophisticated and influential christology (doctrine of Christ).  

In the gospel of John, in a very well-known passage no less, Jesus does something very peculiar, and it has been the subject of much conjecture ever since:

The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery; and making her stand before all of them, they said to him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They said this to test him, so that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus straightened up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, sir." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again."  (John 8:3-11)

What was Jesus writing?  Well, this clever theologian has some idea...

Karl Barth, Paul Tillich, Reinhold Niebuhr and James Cone found themselves all at the same time at Caesarea Philippi. Who should come
along but Jesus, and he asked the four the same Christological question, "Who do you say that I am?"

Karl Barth stands up and says: You are the totaliter aliter, the vestigious trinitatum who speaks to us in the modality of Christo-monism.

Not prepared for Barth's brevity, Paul Tillich stumbles out: You are he who heals our ambiguities and overcomes the split of angst and
existential estrangement; you are he who speaks of the theonomous viewpoint of the analogy of our being and the ground of all possibilities.

Reinhold Niebuhr gives a cough for effect and says, in one breath: You are the impossible possibility who brings to us children of light and children of darkness the overwhelming oughtness in the midst of our fraught condition of estrangement and brokenness in the contingency and existential anxieties of our ontological relationships.

Finally James Cone gets up, and raises his voice: You are my Oppressed One, my soul's shalom, the One who was, who is, and who shall be, who has never left us alone in the struggle, the event of liberation in the lives of the oppressed struggling for freedom, and whose blackness is both literal and symbolic.

And Jesus wrote on the ground, "Huh?"

   


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  • Just to reiterate (0 / 0)

    The point here for discussion is your own terms(s) for the Deity and how you came by them.  

    Of course, you can also comment on the time-travel story, or on the passage from John, or you can take this opportunity to rip into Kaufman.  Believe me, you wouldn't be the first!

    I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

    by Mahanoy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 12:14:12 PM PDT

  • One of the advantages (0 / 0)

    of being a polytheist is that you have lots of Deity to go around. (This is also sometimes a problem, but there you are.)

    I tend to refer to the multiplicity as "Deity" because I like the brevity and it doesn't cause as much comment as naming each individual God or Goddess.

    Sometimes I call Her (the Goddess) Magna Mater. Sometimes I call Her Mom. Because it's ultimately a very personal relationship, different names at tdifferent times feels appropriate to me.

    This was a great dieary, Mahanoy! I like time-travel stories as a rule, and this one was new to me.

    Thanks and blessings!

    • Thanks, LE! (0 / 0)

      I was especially hoping that some Pagans/Wiccans/etc. would pop in.  The pantheon part definitely adds a twist to the naming issue!

      I like the idea of context-specific naming.  Really, the Bible is full of context-specific metaphors for God.  There's even a specifically female metaphor for God in the Old Testament (I can't find the reference right now): God is referred to as a "mother hen" shielding her chicks beneath her wings.  I've always loved that one.

      I actually took that as a cue to include a petition to the Mother of All once in the prayers I write once a month for my congregation.  It did not go over so well with everyone.  There was a line after church to talk to the pastor about it.  Thankfully there were also some people who were grateful for some envelope pushing.

      I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

      by Mahanoy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 01:07:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • Context is everything :-) (0 / 0)

        Personally I call to Lord Woden and Lady Freya most frequently, but in work with my coven we tend to focus on Roman/Stregan dieties.

        Since I have both pantheist and panentheist leanings, I tend to use "deity" or the "All" when I'm referring to the source of divinity.

        Lady Freya, Mistress of the Inner Fire, She who wears golden Brisingamen and the feather cloak...Welcome Vanadis, Goddess of Magick...

        Lord Woden, Master of the Mysteries, One-eyed poet in a night blue cloak...Welcome Wanderer, God of Mystic Rites...

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson

        by rune on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 01:51:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • "The source of divinity" (0 / 0)

          This is a question I've had for a long time: is there any school of thought within the various strains of Paganism that pays special attention to the shared "divinity" of the gods and goddesses?  

          Let me put it in my own terms to illustrate: in Christian thought, God is Triune - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  One God in three persons is the classic definition.  The three persons are distinct yet one God, sharing divinity, one nature, etc.

          This sounds like something that might approach some Pagan thinking about the shared divinity of the gods and goddesses (it's not the same, of course, but it might get close).  Is there a concept of a single divine essence that is shared by the gods and goddesses, or is each of them indepedently divine in and of themselves?

          Sorry this is so convoluted - I'm way outside my area here!

          I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

          by Mahanoy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 02:46:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • There are many examples of pagan trinity (0 / 0)

            One simple example is the three aspects of the Goddess: maiden, mother, crone. This refers to the stages of life the goddess goes through in the wheel of year and also informs Wiccan spirituality, which is a fertility religion on its most basic level, being based on the cycles of growth and death that the earth goes through. These aspects also correspond to the three phases of the moon - waxing, full, and waning.

            The Triple Goddess as represented in Wicca is a purely Wiccan concept however. Early pagan cultures did not divide their goddesses up as maiden, mother, and crone, nor did they generally envision specific goddesses as having these particular aspects.

            The Celts viewed many of their gods and goddesses in triple form, but they represented a combination of complementary deities. The Morrigan, for instance, was comprised of Badb, Macha, and Nemain, all goddesses of war and death. Brigid is another classic Celtic triple goddess.

            There are certainly other examples. The Three Fates from Greek mythology, for example. The Goddess triad is an essential feature of the Shakti forms of Hinduism and a distinction is made between the separate goddesses Sarasvati, Lakshmi and Kali and their manifestation as three aspects of MahaDevi, or Divine Mother.

            Wikipedia has a great discussion of the triple goddess

            Every thought you think is magick. Christopher Penczak

            by Nixie on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 03:40:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            • Thank you, Nixie (0 / 0)

              That was a detailed and fascinating answer!

              Your next to last paragraph reminded me of the three Norns of the Norse system (also making an appearance in Wagner's Ring Cycle).  The three Norns - Urd (the past), Verdandi (being), and Skuld (that which is to come) live beneath Yggdrasil, weaving the threads of fate.

              It's interesting that the Norse and the Greeks both had three "fates."  I assumed the Greek fates (Moirae) were also representative of the past, present and future, but they're not.  They're named Clotho ("spinner"), Lachesis ("drawer of lots") and Atropos ("inexorable"), and each has a specific duty - spinning the thread, measuring the thread, and cutting the thread.  So in that sense they represent birth, life, and death.  

              It's interesting, too, that both the Norns and the Moirae were considered older than the gods, often represented as hags or crones - old "spinsters."

                 

              I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

              by Mahanoy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 03:58:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            • The Triple God (0 / 0)

              Youth, Father, and Sage.
          • The answer is ... (0 / 0)

            ... "It depends".

            Some Pagan trads consider the various named Gods & Goddesses as aspects, faces, of the archetypal Goddess and God.

            Some feminist / Dianic trads only recognize a single female Deity - the Goddess. Others of this mindset recognize an archetypal Goddess and Her various aspects / faces in other named Goddesses, while others recognize the Feminine as supreme but also the genesis of a male God, Her consort, again as a sole male deity or as an archetype with aspects.

            Some trads posit the existence of Source behind / above the God and Goddess (or Gods & Goddesses) that is so beyond human comprehension as to be pointless to try to discuss or relate to. Some arrogant Christians tend to go "Ah-hah ! See ! THAT is the God of the Bible !" which usually pisses off the Pagans and is likely to get the Christian ignored, if not ejected.

            In some trads various named Goddesses & Gods are distinct, separate, self-aware and self-willing  entities. Many of the Reconstructionist trads fall into this category, and some reject being included under the "Pagan" umbrella, specifically Asatru, the aboriginal religion of various Norse & Germanic tribes.

            Clear as mud ? I thought so !

          • Odin, Vili, Ve (0 / 0)

            nt

            "Just because you can explain it doesn't mean it's not still a miracle." - Small Gods by Terry Prachett

            by lonespark on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 05:05:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          • I really can't add... (0 / 0)

            ...a lot to what everyone has said, but my personal answer is that the "intellectual" part of my theology (as taught in my lineage) is extremely close to orthodox Hindu teaching. (Warning: Extreme Oversimplification Ahead!) One source, with many manifestations/vibrations.

            The paradox is in daily interaction, the deities that I encounter are real and separate "persons." And they are "god/dess" -- but there are also many of them. So for the most part, I try not to let my brain come between me and the experience of deity.

            Think about, but don't "over-think" as it were.

            "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson

            by rune on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 06:43:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        • Mad props (0 / 0)

          Honestly, one of the things I love most about my faith are the kennings.  Mystery wrapped in the power of language.

          "Just because you can explain it doesn't mean it's not still a miracle." - Small Gods by Terry Prachett

          by lonespark on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 04:51:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      • Kathleen Norris (0 / 0)

        refers in one of her essays to an image in the Psalms (I think) of God as a woman in labor. So I suppose another name might be "Creatrix".... :)
    • A naive question (0 / 0)

      Do the deities partake of a common divine substance, or are each of their divinities unique?  Or is my question worded in a way that does not allow you to give the correct answer (if there is one)?
      • There are lots of answers to (0 / 0)

        your question(s).  They are all correct.
      • Oops! (0 / 0)

        I should read more carefully.  Then I would see that you already asked my question (and in a much clearer fashion, too)!

        I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

        by Mahanoy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 02:48:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      • My answer to that is... (0 / 0)

        Yes!  They are related, and indeed gods of different pantheons can be very closely related, to the point where some argue that, for instance, many Indo-European pantheons are really just translations of the same folks, or something like metaphysical extended family.  I'm a hard polytheist, but that still leaves room for gods with several aspects and forms, gods who die and are reborn, and a great power and substance underlying it all.  NOT the same as "all gods are one," and DEFINITELY not the same as "We'll use any damn name we feel like to refer to our vision of the Divine Male and Female."

        "Just because you can explain it doesn't mean it's not still a miracle." - Small Gods by Terry Prachett

        by lonespark on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 05:11:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  • What Jesus Was Writing (0 / 0)

    The story I always liked was that Jesus was writing the sins of the Pharisees.

    Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

    by Anthony de Jesus on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 01:16:10 PM PDT

    • That's an interesting idea (0 / 0)

      They certainly got out of dodge pretty quickly after that episode.  Of course, he said plenty to upset them, too.  And John clearly has no love for the "elders," so it makes me wonder why he would have Jesus write the sins on the ground rather than say them out loud.  Of course, it's also possible that Jesus actually did write on the ground (we mustn't overlook the literal meaning), in which case your guess is as good as mine!

      I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

      by Mahanoy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 01:19:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • me (0 / 0)

    i gotta go with allah

    i like what some of the sufis say though:

    Being of beings

    and i also like the term "Ineffable"

  • It's situational (0 / 0)

    When talking about God in English, I usually just go with God. ("Go with God" -- nice turn of phrase!)

    When speaking with religious Jews, I might refer to God as Hashem ("the name" -- it's a reference to the Tetragrammaton, commonly misidentified as "Yahweh," which is itself an odd combination of the past, present, and future tenses of the Hebrew root meaning "to be").

    In prayer, I use several names: Adonai ("my Lord"), Eloheinu ("our God"), melekh ha'olam ("king of the universe"), el maleh rakhamim ("God full of mercy"), avinu she'ba'shamayim ("our God in heaven"), etc.

    There are also other references used in sacred texts, such as shekhinah (no easy translation, but it's a feminine image of God's presence).

    Thwarting the forces of conservatism since 1978.

    by wiscmass on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 02:23:05 PM PDT

    • asdf (0 / 0)

      Judaism has so many wonderful, rich terms for God, not to mention a very healthy understanding of the relationship between language and reality.  When I was studying Hebrew I would often visit Orthodox websites that had a page of instructions about how to dispose of any data or printed materials containing the name.

      In our Hebrew class in seminary the professor left it up to us whether we would say the tetragrammaton or use an alternative.  Almost all of us used Adonai when reading the name, and one student used Ha Shem.  

      Shekinah and Elohim are very interesting etymologically, as Shekinah is feminine and Elohim is plural.  I've read different interpretations of Shekinah - some suggest that it is a remnant of a pre-monothestic goddess cult, while others argue that it only refers to the divine presence (from shakan, "to dwell" or "reside.")  The same arguments have been made for Elohim regarding its supposed pre-monothestic roots.  

      One question for you - is El Shaddai ever used in prayer?

      I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

      by Mahanoy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 02:40:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • Re: El Shaddai (0 / 0)

        I think it is used in prayer, but not that often, and I can't think of any concrete examples off the top of my head. It may be used in the Yom Kippur liturgy, or perhaps in some of the Psalms that escape me at the moment.

        In my response, I just listed the names that are most commonly used. El Shaddai (or sometimes just Shaddai) is more common in the Torah and the Book of Job, where it refers to God's power -- El Shaddai is often translated as "almighty God."

        Thwarting the forces of conservatism since 1978.

        by wiscmass on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 03:24:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    • The Tetragrammaton (0 / 0)

      Huh.  I always thought it meant simply "I am", but it becomes extremely interesting if it is:

      an odd combination of the past, present, and future tenses of the Hebrew root meaning "to be"

      Is it more accurately understood as being simultaneously I am, I was and I will be?

      • Pretty much (0 / 0)

        The Tetragrammaton, as I noted, is often misidentified as "Yahweh" -- perhaps "misidentified" is the wrong word, but to religious Jews, you never say the name. According to tradition, the proper pronunciation has been lost, though if you read it using the conventions of modern Hebrew, it would sound like "ye-ho-va," with an accent on the last syllable. This may be more familiar as "Jehovah," and the letters, in order (and you're not even supposed to spell it out, so pardon me if this looks a little awkward), are first a yud, then a hay, then a vav, then another hay.

        The Hebrew root for "to be" is lihiyot. The generic past tense is haya -- the letters are hay, yud, hay. The generic present tense is ho'veh -- hay, vav, vav, hay. Finally, the generic future tense is yihiyeh -- yud, hay, yud, hay.

        • Haya: hay-yud-hay
        • Ho'veh: hay-vav-vav-hay
        • Yihiyeh: yud-hay-yud-hay

        Put them all together, and you get the Ineffable Name of God.

        Now, if you want to get really technical, "I was" is hayiti, "I am" doesn't really have a direct Hebrew translation within this root -- it's just ani ("I am" or more generally "I" or "me"), and "I will be" is e'he'yeh.

        I could explain it better, but I don't think you all want to sit through my patented Hebrew for Beginners seminar, and what I've written above should suffice to answer the question. :)

        Thwarting the forces of conservatism since 1978.

        by wiscmass on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 03:35:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • You have no idea how happy you just made me! (0 / 0)

          I don't get the chance to use my Hebrew much anymore, so it's so great to get into it again here.  I absolutely loved my Hebrew studies in seminary.  My last semester there were three of us, and we read the Joseph story from Genesis.  It was such a great class.

          Erev tov!

          I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

          by Mahanoy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 03:40:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • I'm happy to help! (0 / 0)

            I don't have much opportunity to use my Hebrew around here. Only two of my friends here speak the language with sufficient fluency to make conversation possible, and though I see both fairly frequently, we're usually in the company of several other friends, so we worry that it would be rude to speak Hebrew in front of them.

            Thwarting the forces of conservatism since 1978.

            by wiscmass on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 05:00:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            • I suggest that (0 / 0)

              maybe if you do they'll learn, so they can tell if you are saying rude things about them.  That's the reason I know the small bits of Dutch I know.

              "Just because you can explain it doesn't mean it's not still a miracle." - Small Gods by Terry Prachett

              by lonespark on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 05:16:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              • Easier said than done, unfortunately (0 / 0)

                Most of my Jewish friends here can read Hebrew at least haltingly, but only know a few words here or there. My non-Jewish friends' knowledge of Hebrew is typically restricted to whatever Yiddish words have found their way into American English. And we're all either graduate students or young professionals with busy jobs, and several of my friends have infant children, so none of us have much time for language acquisition of the sort that is necessary for the development of competence for conversational purposes.

                I end up speaking in Hebrew with one of my sisters. She's very fluent, and I'm relatively fluent -- I forget a lot when I don't use it much, but it all comes back when I spend a month in Israel. Of course, she also speaks half a dozen other languages fluently and never forgets any of them, so it's really not an issue for her.

                Thwarting the forces of conservatism since 1978.

                by wiscmass on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 01:34:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          • When I took Hebrew... (0 / 0)

            the teacher asked us what we wanted to read.  My friend piped up "Leviticus!" - jokingly.  He didn't get the joke, so we read Leviticus.

            The Wine of Youth ferments this night in the veins of God - Alfred de Musset.

            by dirkster42 on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 06:39:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            • You're kidding... (0 / 0)

              Oy.  That's a recipe for a really boring semester, if you ask me.  

              We tried to get our professor to add some passages from Ezekiel, but there wasn't enough time.  Have you ever really read Ezekiel - it is wild!!

              I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

              by Mahanoy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 09:11:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              • Ezekiel (0 / 0)

                I always thought reading Ezekiel was similar to reading Jack London. It's a little odd, repetitive in a lot of places, and you often wonder what the hell he's talking about.

                Thwarting the forces of conservatism since 1978.

                by wiscmass on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 01:37:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  • In direct address: (0 / 0)

    I simply say: 'You!'

    In the third person: 'Holy Wisdom,' 'the Almighty and Eternal,' or just 'God.'

  • I'm surprised (0 / 0)

    at how many different ways I refer to divinity. Hadn't thought of them all until you asked.

    If I'm talking theology in conversation or at Sunday school, I use the word God, but I try not to say "he" or "she" specifically.

    Privately, I sometimes use "Love itself" or "the Truth." If I'm feeling really mystical or classic I might use "The Mighty One."

    As for Jesus, I tend to shy away from terms connected to royalty. I call him "Master" or "Teacher," in addition to the always-good Jesus/ Christ/ JesusChrist

    Make me a beast half as brave/I'd be the same.

    by Caliban120 on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 02:28:53 PM PDT

  • God and Goddess (0 / 0)

    In the most general sense, I refer to deity in ritual and devotionals simply as the God and Goddess, meant to represent the dual nature of the Wiccan sense and acknowledgement of deity. This is fairly common. One evocation that I learned from my teacher refers to them as "the Two Who Move As One in the love of the Great Spirit, the Goddess and God."

    Of course, Wicca is practiced very differently depending on your particular belief system and how formally you practice. Some covens have very specific ways of addressing deity but if you are a solitary, as I am, you have a lot of room for personalization.

    For me, it also depends on the particular work I am doing. If I wish to call upon a particular deity for guidance, help, etc. as part of a ritual or in meditation, then I will do an invocation tailored to appeal to that individual. So far, I'm fairly cross-pantheon, although I'm trying to explore my Celtic heritage by learning about the Celtic gods and goddesses. Again, this is an area where Wiccan practice can vary greatly. Some adhere strictly to one pantheon, while others find that they connect with certain deities from different pantheons.

    Every thought you think is magick. Christopher Penczak

    by Nixie on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 02:35:32 PM PDT

  • The name I call God in my heart.... (0 / 0)

    is God.

    In groups, I'm careful to feel out what the feeling is and adjust appropriately by identifying from "Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" to "the Mother/Father of us all" or "Creator" to God/dess depending on the spectrum.

    When I think intellectually, I'll refer to God as "Tao" because I think that pretty much encapsulates (for me trying to explain to others) how I view the nature of the Deity.

    But in the deepest depths of my mind and in my heart's secret chambers God is God, the Father.  It's my knee-jerk response -- loving father of us all: God.

    "The LORD is thy keeper: the LORD is thy shade upon thy right hand. The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night." ~ Psalm 121:5-6

    by Sweet Georgia Peach on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 03:02:57 PM PDT

  • That's That :-) (0 / 0)

    For shorthand I use the word God. I sometimes use the word Source if I am speaking about Creation. But when I want to convey my understanding of  God I use "That".  It is gender neutral, and ambiguous; since I believe that none of us can comprehend the totality of God with our limited human brains, I appreciate the ambiguous nature of the term "That". God is all that I can comprehend and more. One of my teachers said that merely by thinking of God, we limit God. That was one of my first real lessons on the truly grand nature of God.

    Even though I have practiced with Hindu and Buddhist deities, I  never considered myself Pagan. I  always considered those deities to be an aspect of the totality of God and not pagan. It was a real shocker for me when Quotefiend linked to the Kali temple and there I found pictures of Kali devotees at a Pagan Festival! Funny, isn't it how different people could be working with the same deities and some are practicing Paganism and others are not?

    This is a great light hearted diary for a Friday night, Mahanoy. Thank you for giving us something fun to think about!

    I am That, you are That, all of this is That, and That is all there is.

    by shakti on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 03:07:59 PM PDT

    • Glad to hear it! (0 / 0)

      I'm really enjoying the conversation, too!

      I knew this would be the perfect place to ask this question, because we have so many different traditions represented here.  I ask this question in my theology classes and everyone is so careful to give the "orthodox" answer that I'm soon bored to tears.  

      No such thing happening with this discussion!

      I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

      by Mahanoy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 03:41:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • Orthodoxy... (0 / 0)

        No need worrying about any of that coming from me! :-D

        I am That, you are That, all of this is That, and That is all there is.

        by shakti on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 04:01:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      • Sooo ... (0 / 0)

        Copy'n'paste all these answers into a word processing document, subtract identifying information, format as a handout and REALLY shake up your theology classes a bit.

        AND, you get to tell them that you "know" the person behind EVERY SINGLE ANSWER, at which point your students will be in such shock that you might actually be able to teach them something !

        • asdf (0 / 0)

          Now that would be a fun class!!

          Seminary education is so tricky, because the vast majority of students are training to become ordained pastors of a specific denomination, and they have regular meetings with their candidacy committees, who are charged with keeping track of their progress (including their "orthodoxy," however each committee chooses to define that).  We try to tell them that we, their teachers, are not paid informants for their candidacy committees, and we are not going to rat them out if they experiment with a little heterodoxy.  In fact, I have yet to meet the MDiv student who has topped any of the professors in the heterodoxy department!

          Now, in that context certain red flags would go up if one of them suddenly decided to dedicate themselves to Kali.  Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course - we would just suggest to them that ordained ministry in a Christian denomination might not be the best career path for them at this particular juncture!

          I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

          by Mahanoy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 04:21:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • Your heterodoxy... (0 / 0)

            A long time ago I told you I thought you were going to make a great teacher of pastors, and now I know why!

            And LMAO at the idea of any of those students becoming Kali devotees! Mahanoy, you are a scream!

            I am That, you are That, all of this is That, and That is all there is.

            by shakti on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 04:39:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      • Heh, some teacher's aid, (0 / 0)

        Wolfie's cut and paste .doc idea is a great one, Mahanoy. Just think of the discussions that document would encourage! Some might be threatened, but others just might be encouraged to really open up. At least you would not be falling asleep.

        I am That, you are That, all of this is That, and That is all there is.

        by shakti on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 04:19:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • I think you're right (0 / 0)

          There are a few of my students who would have been terribly threatened by this discussion, but others would have welcomed the opportunity to really experiment.  

          Of course, I threaten some of them on a daily basis - I'm always surprised by the reactions I sometimes get to some of my basic doctrinal positions.  They're not heretical by any means - they're just out there smack dab in the middle of heterodoxy.  And it freaks some people out!

          I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

          by Mahanoy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 04:27:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  • God/dess (0 / 0)

    Though I revere both God and Goddess as the Feminine and masculine energies of the universe, I call on Goddess as Mother and nurturer, and like Mom I can go to Her with my sorrows and pains and know she Consols and comforts.. The Magna Mater...Mother of Life, Mother of Gods.

    Goddess and God, two who art One which is the initiator of Life.

    I follow a Pre classical Greek/Roman  Trad...Rhea who is  Her daughter Demeter, and grandaughter  Persephone and the ancient Hecate.

    And the God Curnunnos who is also Herne and Pan...But who is also Chronus.
    LOL...
    I can't imagine what a Christian would think of  my bunch...and their myths.

    O cosmic Birther of all radiance and vibration!
    Soften the ground of my being and carve out a space within me where your Presence can abide.
    Fill me with your creativity so that I may be empowered to bear the fruit of your mission.
    Let each of our actions bear fruit in accordance with our desire.
    Endow me with the wisdom to produce and share what each being needs to grow and flourish.
    Untie the tangled threads of destiny that bind me, as I release others from the entanglement of past mistakes.
    Do not let me be seduced by that which would divert me from my true purpose, but illuminate the opportunities of the present moment.
    For you are the ground and the fruitful vision, the birth-power and fulfillment, as all is gathered and made whole once again.
                                                        So Mote it Be...

    • That's a great "prayer" (0 / 0)

      I hope you don't mind if I borrow it. It really resonated with me and reminds me of some of the personal work I need to be doing right now. It will make a good devotional. Thanks!

      Blessed Be.

      Every thought you think is magick. Christopher Penczak

      by Nixie on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 05:28:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • A rambling answer..... (0 / 0)

    I typically use the old-fashioned trinitarian formulation, but that doesn't really tell the whole story.  God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Yeah, that sorta works for me.  I usually just say God, though.  I've gotten a lot better at talking about Jesus.  I used to worry that it would make me sound like an evangelical, but after all, Jesus was quite a social revolutionary.  I guess I oversimplified at first, since I refer to the Son as both Jesus and Christ depending on how I'm using it.  As part of God in heaven: Christ.  That guy who is recorded in the Gospels: Jesus.  In some ways, I guess I have trouble seeing them as one in the same....  I'm also getting better at talking about the Holy Spirit.  It has always seemed like a foreign concept to me, for some reason, but the Presbyterianism that I was raised with was quite heady.  I don't typically talk about God as Father, though.  I prefer motherly images, but I think that is due to the fact that my mother was a very remarkable woman (and a true saint).  I've also always had better relationships with women of authority than with men of authority...

    Did I answer the question???

    • You did! (0 / 0)

      You answered it with flair!

      The Trinity is a beautiful and necessary doctrine, but it certainly makes things difficult in terms of simple understanding.  I had a professor in seminary who used to joke that the moment we start trying to describe the Trinity we fall into heresy.  It's not really that drastic, but it does sometimes feel like that!

      As fate would have it, I preached my first sermon in 6 years a few weeks ago... on Trinity Sunday!  It was a challenge to move from academic theology mode to parish proclamation mode, but working on that sermon was a wonderful experience.

      I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

      by Mahanoy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 03:46:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • *Cough* (0 / 0)

    My formal name for Deity is That Which Is Greater Than Ourselves, the result of synthesizing AA's Third Step ("Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him") with my attempts to strip away cultural / sectarian names which always carry some linguistic bias. What I finally arrived at indicates existence ("that" names something, however ambiguously) and my relationship to whatever is named by "That" - it's more powerful than me.

    This gives me a conceptual basis concrete enough to trust and pray to, yet ephemeral enough to retain essential Mystery and prevent assumption i.e. creating "God" in my own image.

    In public and/or for short, I use "God".

    In private, I may use "Infinite Love" as a form of address, but I (usually) believe that when I turn my mind toward That Which Is Greater Than Ourselves I'm immediately listened to, so often I'll just start speaking / praying without calling any name / title at all.

    Such ambiguity makes it difficult at times to cling to "God", but I'd rather that than the rock-solid faith so many folk have in a multitude of monstrous ideas about who "God" is and what "God" wants.

  • I have more to say (0 / 0)

    Than I can quickly post now at work.
    I don't call the Divine anything.  I just sense it, in my inadequate way.  As for the Gods, my gods, my Elder Kin, they've got many names and formulations, which is especially good as it keeps one from getting tangled op in Germanic vs. Norse names.  I still have pronounciation problems when I talk about certain other gods.

    Got used to saying Hashem, too, but sometimes referring specifically to my understanding of the Jewish God, other times more to a sort of Spirit of the Universe, as my forbears might have said Providence.  

    "Just because you can explain it doesn't mean it's not still a miracle." - Small Gods by Terry Prachett

    by lonespark on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 05:03:06 PM PDT

  • Interesting question (0 / 0)

    The answer for me has changed over time.  After I got through my period of anger with God I used Higher Power.  It was appropriate at the time because I was in AA.  My image of a Higher Power was the image of the people in my group.  When I made my first tentative steps back to the Catholic Church I spoke with a priest on an AA retreat.  I told him I had problems with God the Father.  He shrugged and said fine, imagine God the Mother.  Given my relationship with my mother that was untenable.

    In time I used the word God but had no image attached to it.  I attended Mass but had no attachment to the Trinity.  Through Masses at Dignity I made the sign of the cross "in the name of the One who created us, the One who healed us, and the One who makes us holy people."  

    The longer I was sober the more attached I was to God the parent who loves each of us unconditionally.  Through a Cursillo (short course in christianity) I became attached to Jesus and that deepened as I studied the Bible.

    In 1999 I did the Spiritual Exercises of St Ignatius and in one of the meditations we were asked to talk with Mary, then walk with her to Jesus, talk with him, then journey with him to the Father.  Through that experience I now have the image of God as the cosmos.  I think it came from a picture from the Hubble.  But that really works for me.

    When I talk to Jesus in my mind he's always sitting on the seawall and I'm sitting on the steps.  When I talk to God in my mind I'm staring up into the cosmos.  

    So I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may dwell in me...for whenever I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Corinthians 12:9-10

    by sobermom on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 05:26:31 PM PDT

  • goodness - look at all the posts (0 / 0)

    I must confess that I am pretty bland - most of the time I simply use God, but I tend to precede that with lots of adjectives: loving, gracious, etc. I also occasionally use Creator.

    When I settle myself enough to do centering prayer, my sacred word is ruah - focusing on the Spirit of God and opening myself up to God's presense. Presence itself is a comforting one for me also, though I think I use it more in poetry.

    Since I have a strong relationship with my parents, both Father and Mother work well for me too.

    Being sometimes more fond of the via negativa let me also say what I don't use - I don't use Lord usually (I shy away from power-laden metaphors), I don't tend to pray directly to Jesus, and I generally don't get "chummy" in the kind of langauge I use.

    Funny, for all my general emphasis on language, I haven't thought too much about what names I use for God.

  • Er... (0 / 0)

    That's not a simple question.

    Well, okay, I can list the names that I verbalize, but...those names don't relate the emotional images I use.

    Depending on the situation, and if I'm talking about God to someone else, I use the terms God, Divinity, the Divine, Deity, Creator, and the like.

    In more personal communications, I use such terms as Creator of the Universe, Mother of Life, Father Protector, Mother-Father God, Lord, Lady, Teacher, Holy Mother, Begetter of All That Is, the Reality Behind All Illusions, Source, That Which Is, and, Hey You Dammit I've Got A Bone To Pick With You.

    It really kinda depends on what Name seems appropriate at a given time. I'm not really very formal about it all.  

    I'm quite comfortable using the standard (and not-so-standard) mythological God names, but I tend to feel that I'm addressing different persons when I do so. Whether or not I can be called a polytheist depends on your definition of polytheism. Or even just theism.

    For instance, when I address Ganesh, I don't feel I'm addressing the same person as the Creator of the Universe.

    But I could be wrong. I really am not sure.

    But neither Ganesh nor the Creator seem terribly worried about it, so I don't sweat it either.

    - - Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. Those who study history are doomed to know it's repeating. - Jwhitlock

    by Alice Venturi on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 05:36:25 PM PDT

    • asdf (0 / 0)

      Hey You Dammit I've Got A Bone To Pick With You.

      That is classic!  I can't begin to tell you how many people I know who are terrified of the idea that God might smite them because sometimes they get angry with God.  But prayer doesn't always have to be thanksgiving, praise, and intercession.  Sometimes prayer can be doubt, even rage against God.  

      Luther liked to say that Christ makes us bold to approach God, standing tall and praying with a loud voice, not cowering and whimpering like frightened children.  I've always liked that image.

      I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

      by Mahanoy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 08:58:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • asdf (0 / 0)

        I can't begin to tell you how many people I know who are terrified of the idea that God might smite them because sometimes they get angry with God.

        But none of your students are like that, right? I mean, they've read the Bible at some point, right? All those wondrous, righteous rants to and at God by Job, Moses, a prophet or two?

        Sorry, but the snark was irresistable. Perhaps you should make them read some of those passages out loud, in front of the class. Or read it to them, if you can declaim well. I swear, Job was meant to be read out loud.

        It's funny how some folks take that "fear of God" thing seriously, as fear rather than respect.

        Anger is actually one of my more reliable ways to get in touch with God. Not the "I'm-having-a-pissy-day-don't-mess-with-me" kind of anger. It has to be spontaneous, heart-felt anger on behalf of a situation, a person, a cause, something outside of myself. It doesn't necessarily have to some great cause; minor injustices seem to do just as well as great ones.

        With that kind of anger, I feel the Presence of the Divine as I do not under other circumstances. I suspect it's individual to me, but it leads me to think that everyone has a particular "mode" wherein they can come especially close to that Presence. Perhaps in these "modes" we come closest to being our most authentic selves.

        - - Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. Those who study history are doomed to know it's repeating. - Jwhitlock

        by Alice Venturi on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 12:42:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • You are not alone (0 / 0)

          When I let go at "God" with full-tilt, unbridled, un-censored, fearless anger, things happen. Not that I've necessarily noticed anything happening outside of me, but my State of Being tends to re-arrange so that *I* am either more peaceful with whatever I was angry about or I see a course of action I didn't before and have the peace of mind and energy to pursue it.

          At other times, unleashing anger scrapes the scab off a deep hurt that needs to drain in order to heal, and when that happens I shift very abruptly from anger to cleansing tears.

          And finally, telling "God" the details of deep despair ending with the statement that I really, really would rather be dead (not suicidal, mind you) with fearless disregard for whether or not "God" will actually grant my request often tends to free me to a very peaceful place.

          As a matter of fact, that happened just last night and I'm in a much better place today.

          It's taken me a looooooong time to really *get* the 12 Step principle of rigorous honesty, especially when it comes to conversing with That Which Is Greater Than Ourselves. But when I am naked in my honesty, without fear - that's when I know beyong a shadow of a doubt that there IS a "God" and that I am listened to, and loved.

  • In my mind I always call God (0 / 0)

    "The Universe."

    That doesn't work when talking to other people cause it's pretty broad, but that's what I call God.

    It's impersonal compared to what most people call God.  When life is kind to me I think "The Universe has been kind to me," rather than attributing my good fortune to an actual entity, but I haven't yet come to the conclusion that God is an entity within the limits of my understanding.

  • I'm late, as usual. (0 / 0)

    What do I call Diety, and why? Many above have covered it pretty well, so I'll be brief (cough) on one part. As you know I regularly refer to God as God/dess. That is shorthand for God and Goddess, the two main Wiccan forms of address for Diety.

    I also call on specific Goddess aspects--like Kali Ma--or Quan Yin. Circumstances dictate Who I invoke or speak with in prayer, but most often it is the Great Mother, since I am most comfortable with the image in my head. I see a big woman, with strength of arm and leg, large breasts, a mass of riotous long, curly hair that has all colors in it, and has a life of its own, skin the color of burnished copper, a big smile, and twinkling eyes that are very deep green. She wears a flowing garment made of spidersilk, that shifts in color with the seasons. Her smile lights up the world. Plants grow where She walks. Birds attend Her. Stars sing of Her. She cradles me in her arms--and with her cloak of starlit skies, She will carry me safely at my death.

    I also see Diety another way. In the writing of my series Angels' Watch, I have come to another vision of Diety that resonates with me. Diety in the story is sort of a Trinity, designated by three names. The first one describes the unity of the other two: Kiiyihnihkah'ur--The One Who Thought Up Everything. The second and third parts are: Ahdrahsihkah'ur--The Guardian Protector, the male aspect of The One; Siiahnihkee'ur--The Mother of Space, the Mother of the Silicrys--the Beings of Light in my story. She is the female aspect of The One. These Diety forms are pure energy, so describing how they appear is near impossible. These images may be only fictional, yet they name concepts that are very real.

    I hope that hasn't totally freaked you out, Mahanoy. Not many folks create names for Diety...

    I'm in favor of you cutting and pasting from this thread! Just share your class' reactions with us!

    In love and light,

    Q.

    Choo Choo Q. ~Retired locomotive engineer, Author, Wiccan priestess--and snarky were-wolverine since 1999.

    by Quotefiend on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 07:28:51 PM PDT

    • Your goddess imagery (0 / 0)

      is very moving and powerful, Quotefiend.

      I used to think I had to be a writer, and I spent a great deal of time developing pantheons for the worlds of my stories.  I'm sure other people have done the same.  Maybe we could share them in a diary?

      I had a whole pantheon worked out for this one scifi world, but eventually it evolved to where the main deity folks honored was the god of random chance.  The idea was that it was a young society that valued risk-taking and not regarding onesself too seriously.

      "Just because you can explain it doesn't mean it's not still a miracle." - Small Gods by Terry Prachett

      by lonespark on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 07:48:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • LOL (0 / 0)

        Yes! I have made entire pantheons for some stories back when I was young. However, my Story (Angels' Watch Series) has captured my soul completely. Whatever future worlds my characters see will be through the lens of Street Prophets and my own spiritual journey. The Dieties will be the ones I've described above--or new ones for other races.

        I believe Diety is big enough for all of this, for how do we know that what we posit isn't true somewhere?

        Q.

        Choo Choo Q. ~Retired locomotive engineer, Author, Wiccan priestess--and snarky were-wolverine since 1999.

        by Quotefiend on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 08:10:20 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    • Yay Q! (0 / 0)

      I was wondering when you were going to pop in.  As always, I've learned a lot!

      You never have to worry about freaking me out, dear Q!  

      When I was still teaching (I'm not anymore - just writing my dissertation), one of the assignments was for each student to write a "faith statement" in which they develop their own theology.  The only requirements were that it include a discussion of every doctrine (from creation straight through to eschatology) and that it refer to the course texts.  But most importantly, they had to tell us why they wrote what they did.  

      Most of the students simply plugged what they thought was "orthodox" Reformed theology into the structure of the Creeds (three articles, one each on Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).  But a few got creative and critical, and those were the fun ones to read.  

      One of the best papers I got was from a student who was never comfortable with the traditional language for God.  So he created his own name for the Deity, even going so far as to decline it like Greek or Latin so there was never any confusion with pronouns.  It was amazing.  I was so impressed.  He would really love this discussion!

      I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

      by Mahanoy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 09:08:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • Thanks, big guy. (0 / 0)

        We didn't have internet till mid afternoon, so I was seven hours behind in reading here. I missed out on the Dominionists3 thread entirely, though I did throw some fours on the ones that hadn't expired.

        Your diaries are always so interesting!

        BTW, do you, by chance, know who landed the Picnic Diary on the FP? I need to thank him/her. It was my first FP diary ever.

        I wasn't sure if my Story Diety references were kosher, but they do affect me in real life, so I included them. Thanks for not thinking that I'm nuts. (You don't think I'm nuts, do you?)

        <giggles>

        Q.

        Choo Choo Q. ~Retired locomotive engineer, Author, Wiccan priestess--and snarky were-wolverine since 1999.

        by Quotefiend on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 09:39:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  • Well, since I'm a 'bi-Godual' type a person (0 / 0)

    I call on Ptah as God and Gaea as Goddess.
    No they aren't directly related to each other in terms of historical artifact. Rather Ptah is based off one of the earliest of religions in human history (ancient Egypt) and is more a homage to our ancestors for the fight to survive through out humanity's first years on Earth. That, and I tend to feel that Ptah, being a creation god appeals to my own urge to create in my writing. To take the old and reforge into the new.
    Gaea... well, it's the Earth. Which I happen to think is quite alive and thinking.
    We are her expression. But, hey were young so we tend to not quite do what She is trying to express.
    Beyond that, I concentrate on human beings, our past, our potential (infinite btw) and our future (limited to our experiences).
    There you be...

    Our gift is Free Will. Infinite in Potential, limited only in Experience.

    by R Elland on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 08:20:08 PM PDT

  • Interesting.... (0 / 0)

    I tend to recognize specific god-energies, though I don't always name them, or figure out what name humans have generally used for that energy, at least until later.

    I do recognize the That Which IS. And I say it's bigger than the word and concept of "God" in my head. It is. THAT is the water, and I am a jellyfish, pervaded, supported, given form by this life, this energy, this IS-ness that sings with the joy of IS in everything I know and see and touch.

    The gods participate in the IS, but they are not identical to it. When I call my Mother in the night, crying in pain, I know Her for a very specific energy. When I call my Lord, it is a different thing.

    And when I invoke, it's definitely possible for me to zero in on exactly what god-energies I want to call. If I call, "Lady, Mother, you who birthed the world and recieve its last breath, Eternal Necessity" I get someone much different than if I call to "Lady, Mother, hope in times of hopelessness, my strength when I can go no further, my endurance when I am broken." Are they participatory in some of the same essence? Yes. Are they identical? No.

    Long answer, but it's a subject that takes a lot of words to even try to hold the Mystery.

    Oldest of the Old Ones, I am, Mother of the stars and of the earth.

    by Alexandra Lynch on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 08:34:42 PM PDT

  • Love (0 / 0)

    Lord, God, Father, Jesus, Spirit

    But Love especially.

    Oh Love!
    Holy Love!
    Mercy, Love!
    Give us peace.

    • Reminds me of something... (0 / 0)

      ... that my college logic professor used as an example of an illogical relationship:

      God is Love
      Love is Blind
      Ray Charles is Blind
      Therefore: Ray Charles is God

      • asdf (0 / 0)

        Heh. We could worship worse gods than Ray.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- Hunter S. Thompson

        by rune on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 01:31:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • Heh Indeed... (0 / 0)

          Heh was one of the first Egyptian Gods.

          The frog or human headed god Heh (or Huh) was one of the original eight gods of the Ogdoad of Khmunu (Hermopolis). He was the god of infinity and time, the god of long life and eternity. In his hand he is shown holding one or two palm fronds of 'A Million Years' in his hands, the Egyptian sign of long life. Sometimes he was shown wearing a palm frond on his head, as a headdress.

          As a god of infinity, his name was linked to numbers. His determinative - an image of Heh with his arms raised  - was used for 'one million'.

  • Trinity (0 / 0)

    Hi. I've been lurking for a while. This seems like a grand topic to unlurk with. Nice to meet you all!

    I call on God by many names, as many folks have said. The names closest to my heart, though, are these names for the persons of the Trinity:

    Creator God, Emmanuel, Sophia
    :

    Creator God, who created us, who created the heavens and the earth, the universe in all its wonder.

    Emmanuel, God-with-us.

    Sophia, Holy Spirit of Wisdom and of Truth, the Breath of God who breathes in us.

    I'm a cradle Roman Catholic, and a feminist. Not always easy mindspaces to be in at once. There have been times where I just couldn't face all those hurtful images of God as male, male, male. It was out of one of those times that I coined these names for the Trinity: Creator God is explicitly neither male nor female in my head. Emmanuel, well, it sounds like it could be Emmanuelle, if the wounds of the patriarchy are particularly inflamed I can hear it that way if I need to; and besides, there is no more potent name for Jesus than God-with-us, that entirely sums up the point and the wonder of the Incarnation for me. Sophia -- well, I was delighted when I encountered the notion of Sophia as a name for the Holy Spirit on the grounds that She was identified with Wisdom in the book of Wisdom, wasn't She? and adopted it at once.

    This gives me an image of the Trinity that balances male, female, and both/neither. That feels right to me.

    I've encountered a Trinitarian formula of "Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier", which I also like; but a friend of mine pointed out it was rather impersonal, focusing on what they did rather than who they were - a good point, I thought.

    Creator God, Emmanuel, Sophia. Works really well for me.

    Much to my delight, I discovered a few months ago that John Henry Newman used a very similar formulation for the Trinity: I believe it was Shaddai, Emmanuel, Sophia. Made me feel all vindicated. :)

    Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

    by StarWoman on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 10:30:06 PM PDT

    • Welcome, StarWoman! (0 / 0)

      Nice to see you decloak (picture Romulan bird of prey materializing).

      Have some cookies! Mahanoy should be by in a bit to comment. There's tea on the sideboard.

      Blessed be,

      Q.

      Choo Choo Q. ~Retired locomotive engineer, Author, Wiccan priestess--and snarky were-wolverine since 1999.

      by Quotefiend on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 10:36:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • Welcome, StarWoman! (0 / 0)

      It's great to have you here, and it's an honor for my diary to be the occasion for your delurking!  As Q said, make yourself at home, have some nibblies and something to wet your whistle.

      I enjoyed your comment very much - you've obviously thought a lot about your understanding of God.  And anyone who has really thought about their religiosity  - whatever that is - has my respect!

      In case you haven't met her yet, next time you see paxpdx around be sure to introduce yourself.  Pax is one of our regular proud progressive Roman Catholics, and she really knows her tradition!

      I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

      by Mahanoy on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 11:03:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • Hello Starwoman! (0 / 0)

      Pleased to meet'cha.

      Odd, but that name Sophia has been on my mind all day today, and then you showed up with this! :-) I like it.

      I am That, you are That, all of this is That, and That is all there is.

      by shakti on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 04:41:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • For the freesmasons among us, it's G.A.O.T.U. (0 / 0)

    "Great Architect of the Universe." Has the virtue of describing the Almighty in terms of what the Almighty does, has done, did.

    Although I like "Daddy" (Abba). As always, "Mommy" is pretty good, too. "Mom" (or "Dad") sounds a bit (too) stern.

    For the kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Rom. 14:17 (NRSV).

    by superskepticalman on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 06:28:22 AM PDT

  • Deity and gods (0 / 0)

    Personally, I find the question a bit difficult to answer, as it is framed to strongly suggest that "Deity" in monotheistic terms of an omnipotent being.  As I work in a religious paradigm that revolves around forming relationships with the "small gods" (beings who are not omnipotent), it's hard to work in that frame.  While I'm open to the possibility of a sort of "Deity" that is the Ultimate Source (most likely the universe itself) from which all god (and all existence itself) flows or is otherwise a part of, this is such an abstract sort of Deity that I find little practical value in trying to work with it in my everyday observances.
  • Interesting... (0 / 0)

    ... you reveal a bit of bias in asking about the Deity. No doubt, there are at least a few here who believe in multiple deities. There might possibly be others who believe in some sort of animism or naturalism in which every living thing has a spirit but there is no supreme spirit or being.

    I mean no offense, but since you ask: I call the deity/deities a romantic myth, as I do not believe in any form of deity or spirit.

    • Mistake on my part (0 / 0)

      I meant to ask simply "What do you call Deity," etc., as a recognition that not all Street Prophets are monotheists.  Thankfully none of my Pagan/Wiccan friends took any offense.  

      I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

      by Mahanoy on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 01:25:01 PM PDT

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  • Hard, hard question to answer. (0 / 0)

    It moves around too much.  I suppose just "God" is the simplest answer - and it's as much a short form of "Goddess" as a regular form of "God" at this point.  And I'd say "love" is the best description of God, but I have a hard time praying to "love."  Well, I usually have a hard time praying.  I can usually manage a simple "thanks, God" from time to time.

    A year ago, I was vaguely obsessed with discerning the reality of Vishnu and, to a lesser degree, Shiva.  I'd studied for a Hinduism exam for a degree requirement, and Vishnu was what stuck, even more than Kali.  If I wasn't trying to be disciplined about sticking to dissertation reading, I'd sit down very soon with a nice shandy and The Buddhist Visnu.  I never did get to the point where Vishnu became something deeply real for me, though.

    In most ways God as Mother makes oh-so-much-more-sense than God as Father to me, but I've become more drawn to male deities in recent years.  I think it might have something to do with getting tired of the whole "gay man in feminized subject position" thing.

    I also find the question of whether or not God exists to be vastly useless.  I think it's a combination of projection meeting being (or Mary Daly's Be-ing), and I have no clue, and no interest in figuring out, what the exact ratio is there.

    And, to change the topic, but stay on-topic, I read about half of that Kaufman In Face of Mystery while studying for quals.  I'd read a chapter to "get in the mood to study" before I hit the stuff I had to know for the exams.

    The Wine of Youth ferments this night in the veins of God - Alfred de Musset.

    by dirkster42 on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 01:23:36 PM PDT

    • Kaufman (0 / 0)

      In Face of Mystery and An Essay on Theological Method were on the reading list for my constructive exam.  I actually read In Face of Mystery sitting in a hotel lobby in Chicago while Mrs. Mahanoy was attending the annual meeting of the American Psychological Society.  

      I love Kaufman's idea of imaginative construction and his idea of theological creativity.  I don't always agree with where he goes from his method, but that's another matter altogether.  

      I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

      by Mahanoy on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 02:46:37 PM PDT

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      • asdf (0 / 0)

        Jury's out on Kaufman.  Sometimes I think right on.  Other times I think he's too eager to capitulate to modernity.  And intimately related to that, the whole enterprise feels rational in a way that leaves little room for passion, randomness, chaos, desire, goopy stuff like that.

        The Wine of Youth ferments this night in the veins of God - Alfred de Musset.

        by dirkster42 on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 03:27:53 PM PDT

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        • asdf (0 / 0)

          the whole enterprise feels rational in a way that leaves little room for passion, randomness, chaos, desire, goopy stuff like that.

          That's certainly a temptation in his work, which is rather ironic given the fact that he is so careful to leave room for the divine creativity under the guise of chaos and randomness in his doctrines of creation and providence.  

          I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

          by Mahanoy on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 03:36:42 PM PDT

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