Street Prophets

Doctrine: its nature and function

Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 09:00:55 PM PDT

Spinning off some discussion about "correct" or "valid" religions in another diary, and trying to reinforce some stuff I learned in class tonight -- I wanted to write about this  and thought it might make for some interesting discussion.

What is the function of doctrinal statements? (In your opinion, and in your faith tradition.)

First, let me define my terms here. A doctrinal statement is a relatively short statement that encapsulates some element of church teaching. For example, "we are justified by faith alone" is a doctrinal statement.

(For purposes of this discussion, issues of what makes such a statement authoritative, or who gets to make them, or the difference between doctrine and dogma, are entirely irrelevant.)

So how do they work? What are they for? What do they do? What do they signify?

We discussed three possible approaches to doctrinal statements in class tonight, and I promise to come back at some point and doublecheck my terminology and add sources, but for now I'm going to just forge ahead.

One school of thought is that these statements are truth claims: they are things that we know about God.  In this sense, they are objective statements, that crystallize or summarize public (common, communal) revelation. They are the kinds of statements that one could conceivably say "this is true" or "this is false" or "this is partly true"; one could argue that "this is correct" or "this is incorrect". This is a fairly intellectual approach.

In this way of thinking, "We are justified by faith alone" is a statement about the nature of salvation, and how God works to save us.

Another school of thought is that these statements are symbolic expressions of inner reality. In this sense, they are subjective statements, that crystallize or summarize private revelation, private religious experience. They are not truth claims, but experiential claims; one might discuss them in terms of validity, but not in terms of correctness.

In this way of thinking, "We are justified by faith alone" is a statement about Luther's personal experience that transformed his relationship with God, his feelings about himself, and his feelings about God; and about similar experiences that other Christians have had, many of whom then chose to call themselves Lutheran.

Another school of thought is that these statements are performative language that tell us to do something. In this sense, they are prescriptive statements, that crystallize or summarize the way of life according to which the followers of the religion are supposed to live. They are neither truth claims nor experiential claims, but praxis imperatives; one might discuss them in terms of importance, but not in terms of either correctness or validity.

In this way of thinking, "We are justified by faith alone" is a statement about how Christians are to live concerning our salvation: namely, in humble gratitude towards a gracious God who alone accomplishes our justification, and not in pride over our own accomplished merit that earns our salvation.

My professor described the first of these as "head", the second as "heart", and the third as "hands".

So what do you think?

  • Do you buy that doctrine can be anything other than truth claims about God, with which a person either agrees or disagrees?
  • Do you think one of these approaches to doctrine is more valid than the others? More useful than the others?
  • If your tradition has doctrinal statements at all, which of these three approaches (or some combination thereof) describes how they function?
  • Do you have a completely different understanding of doctrine? If so, please explain! Ideally with an illustration using the same "justification by faith alone" example.


Tags: doctrine, theology (all tags)

Permalink | 50 comments

  • Cookie jar (14+ / 0-)

    These cookies signify yummy goodness!

    Please take one and let me know you stopped by.

    Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

    by StarWoman on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 09:04:00 PM PDT

  • Can it be all three? (10+ / 0-)

    In your example, I think each is right. "Justified by faith alone" is:

    • a truth statement. I think it matches Biblical revelation.
    • a subjective statement. It applies clearly to my history and salvation - I feel this deeply.
    • it certainly crystallizes the way we are to live.

    I would have to really look at the doctrinal statement of the church I belong to (the one I agreed to in that joining) to see whether each and every statement has all three aspects - but in general I think doctrine should have all three elements.

    • we should believe it is true.
    • we should see it in our lives - it should tranform us
    • it should lead us to a way to live in God's truth - it should guide us

    SP's Bible in a Year: http://www.streetprophets.com/story/2005/10/19/105536/72

    by JCHFleetguy on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 09:52:16 PM PDT

  • A shared bit of liberal religious doctrine: (10+ / 0-)

    I could be wrong.

    That recognition ends up driving those who accept that notion to religious tolerance, and to the acceptance of religious plurality in a society.

    James Luther Adams--probably the pre-eminent UU theologian of the 20th century--offered up what he called The Five Smooth Stones of Liberalism:

    The First Smooth Stone:

    Revelation is continuous.

    The Second Smooth Stone:
    Free choice and respect in human relations.

    The Third Smooth Stone:
    We have a moral obligation to work to build a just and loving community.

    The Forth Smooth Stone:
    Make good things happen.

    (Adams is remembered among other things for his remark "By their groups ye shall know them.")

    The Fifth Smooth Stone:
    Postive change is possible; live in hope and optimism.

    The light is at home in the darkness. -- Parmenides

    by ogre on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 10:45:57 PM PDT

    • And how do they function? (7+ / 0-)

      Are these statements statements of belief, expressions of experience, or praxis imperatives?

      They look like the latter to me; is that how they work within the tradition?

      Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

      by StarWoman on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 05:50:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • They? (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        shakti, Thirst, StarWoman, Festina Lente

        They're a theologian's offering/observation.  A theology of sorts. We UUs tend to disavow expressions of belief that aren't tagged as "This is MY view, and I'm not speaking for everyone...".  So I don't think any of Adams' "stones" are statements of belief, as such.  

        The first thing, "I could be wrong," is the only thing I've found that I think is actual liberal doctrine--at least for UUs.  It calls everyone to be humble (you could be wrong), and respectful of other views (you could be wrong), and to continue to try to find and understand the truth (because... you could be wrong).  It's an expression of experience (most all of us have learned at some point that we're not right all the time...) and of praxis--carry this humility with you....

        That said...

        Of the stones, the first says that wisdom and insight are not the domain of the past, that yesterday's experience and insight is as valuable--and not more valuable than--today's, or tomorrows.  

        The second is a praxis imperative--and I suppose may be a statement of belief.  We disavow and reject any compulsion in religion.  We have since before the Edict of Torda.  We proclaim our own right to find the truth and to find our understanding of it improved--and the rights we claim we claim as a basic and fundamental human right.  So they are equally anyone else's.  No one may compel my belief and I may not seek to compel anyone else's.  That means freedom of choice.  Because we accept that right and demand it--and accept that revelation is ongoing--respect for the beliefs of others is necessary; in part simply for a sane and civil society.

        The third is definitely a praxis imperative.  Sitting on my butt and talking about the need to feed the hungry counts for essentially nothing. I need to get up and do things that help make that happen.

        The fourth is again about praxis... it's how the beloved community can be built. We'd argue that we--human beings--are called to co-create a better world.

        The fifth is attitudinal.  There is cause for hope, and even optimism.  It's really a fundamental of liberalism, I think--that things can be improved, that progress is possible.

        Largely praxis imperatives--with some implications about belief--rooted in experience.

        The light is at home in the darkness. -- Parmenides

        by ogre on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 05:32:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  • Internal or external statements? (7+ / 0-)

    Another aspect I forgot to mention originally is a question of whether doctrinal statements are purely intended for people within the tradition; or whether they are intended also for people outside the tradition.

    If the latter, then some people argue that doctrinal statements should be statements of intellectual content that can be supported by reasonable argument, in order to convince other people of the truth of the faith and therefore convert to the faith.

    I think this is a weak criticism of the other two schools, though; surely it is as effective, if not more effective, to offer people an emotional experience that they will share if they join the faith; and even more effective for Christians to live the gospel and make people curious about why we're doing such unusual and loving things -- as Francis of Assisi said,  we are to preach the Gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words.

    Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

    by StarWoman on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 06:23:29 AM PDT

    • oooooh (8+ / 0-)

      meat here.

      whether doctrinal statements are purely intended for people within the tradition; or whether they are intended also for people outside the tradition.

      primarily internal. People have to get into Lewis's hallway of Christianity before they start trying the individual rooms of different doctrine. Only current Christians are going to seek different doctrine in a different denomination when they encounter difficulties with the doctrine in their current sect. However,  

      some people argue that doctrinal statements should be statements of intellectual content that can be supported by reasonable argument,

      they usually have enough intellectual content that they can be defensible and, especially if you hang on the internets, will need to be defended but not for this reason:

      in order to convince other people of the truth of the faith and therefore convert to the faith.

      Only God convinces people of the truth of the faith and converts folks - what is that doctrine: upon the hearing of the Word. The Gospel they hear should hardly be doctrinaire. Next, I am not sure how this

      to offer people an emotional experience that they will share if they join the faith;

      is done. Again, I think the emotional content is crafted by God - so what may excite and attract one will fall flat on another. Certainly, genuine and heartfelt worship offers such an attraction. Finally, this

      even more effective for Christians to live the gospel and make people curious about why we're doing such unusual and loving things

      was a key part in God moving me back to Him - and it is just the way we are supposed to live regardless of whether it brings folks to Christ.

      SP's Bible in a Year: http://www.streetprophets.com/story/2005/10/19/105536/72

      by JCHFleetguy on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 07:27:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • I would really hope (7+ / 0-)

        Lewis's hallway of Christianity

        that that would be Christ's hallway of Christianity - I'd think of Lewis as one of the rooms.

        The Wine of Youth ferments this night in the veins of God - Alfred de Musset.

        by dirkster42 on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 08:12:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      • Very interesting (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        JCHFleetguy, Thirst, Festina Lente

        Only God convinces people of the truth of the faith and converts folks - what is that doctrine: upon the hearing of the Word.

        This definitely seems to come out of an evangelical (and maybe pietist?) tradition, that minimizes the role of the intellect and will in faith (at least compared to RC theology exemplified by Aquinas).

        Next, I am not sure how this

           to offer people an emotional experience that they will share if they join the faith;

        is done.

        I was thinking about an encounter between a believer and a non-believer, in which the believer exhibits some emotional state(s) (eg, peace, confidence, joy, gentleness, calmness under stress) that the nonbeliever finds appealing and would like to have in their lives, too. For instance, Joe says to Mary, "You're going through such a hard time but you still seem so peaceful, how do you do that???" and Mary says "It's because I have the Holy Spirit in my heart that gives me peace".

        Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

        by StarWoman on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:17:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • Oh OK (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Thirst

          I thought you were talking about experiences in church or in worship. Check.

          I think the first largely comes out of the whole Reformation perhaps - that we are saved by Grace alone: that it is God's action reaching into our lives that allows us to come to Him; and indeed not our human intellect or will.

          I presented that once I am a Christian I may alter my denomination, or my church of attendance, or the doctrine I believe in - by my will and intellect. I do, however, believe that it is God that leads us to faith.

          Heck, I am an apologist "by trade" and I do not think that I can bring people to faith by their intellect and/or will.

          SP's Bible in a Year: http://www.streetprophets.com/story/2005/10/19/105536/72

          by JCHFleetguy on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:24:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  • Currently worshipping (8+ / 0-)

    in a non-doctrinal tradition.  Contemplating the question actually made clear that that's really where I'm at now, though I have little patience for knee-jerk, adolescent-minded reactions against communities that clarify what they're doing by formulating doctrines.

    The Wine of Youth ferments this night in the veins of God - Alfred de Musset.

    by dirkster42 on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 07:22:24 AM PDT

    • Say more, please? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Thirst, Festina Lente

      Being at a non-doctrinal place offers a valuable perspective on the nature and function of doctrine.

      Is there something else in the non-doctrinal tradition that serves the same function as doctrine? If so, what function? and how does it do it?

      Or is there some function that doctrine serves that you find detrimental to your spiritual growth? If so, what is that function? And is there anything valuable that you give up along with the hindrance?

      Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

      by StarWoman on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:29:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • faith in philosophical terms (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    mommyof3, Thirst, StarWoman

    A philosophical view of God demands
    faith from the believer. Without faith even the theology of inclusion seems to be not logic.

  • Nicene Creed... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Thirst, StarWoman, ChocolateChris

    or the Apostle's Creed...

    Each sentence proclaims what Catholicism (as well as some  others) believe is true regarding God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, etc.

    There is something to reciting these- to saying the words out loud. IF you aren't in rote-mode and really listen to yourself, you have to think about the words and if you REALLY believe what you are saying...

    • Doctrine as prayer? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      mommyof3, Thirst

      So you're saying that at least some doctrinal statements also serve as a special kind of prayer?

      I agree with you there; although I suspect that what makes the creeds special is that they are not only doctrinal statements but also direct connections to the early church.

      One thing I have found quite meaningful over the last few years is bowing for the lines "born of the Virgin Mary, and became human". It puts into my body the humbling-Godself that God did by becoming human. And I always get a bit out of synch with the congregation on "and his kingdom will have no end", as I emphasize "his" and it makes me think about what Jesus' kingdom is/will be like.

      Interesting point! It's good to be brought back to prayer from the lofty abstractions. :)

      Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

      by StarWoman on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:25:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • From what I can tell, doctrinal statements (0 / 0)

    are a religion's attempt to decide for you, what you should believe.

    What you believe is between you and God. Why should anyone know more about what you should believe than you do.

    They can be useful, but only as a starting point for discussion, which may ultimately lead to something that you can believe in, but I do not think they should be viewed as absolute truth just because someone else says they are.

    • Watch it (0 / 0)

      You don't know how the creeds came into existence, do you? Might oughta avoid commenting on things you know nothing about.

      Suzanne holds the mirror.

      by hamletta on Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 12:09:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • I think you might be getting into territory (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      JCHFleetguy, StarWoman

      outside the scope of this diary.  Namely, doctrine vs. dogma, which was explicitly not included in this diary's scope.

      In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies but the silence of our friends - MLK

      by Thirst on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 12:57:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • Indeed. n/t (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Thirst

        Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

        by StarWoman on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 08:26:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      • I am not sure it is outside really (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Thirst, linkage

        as much as I have avoided TKH's comment here (I have been in s/he's face enough).

        Certainly, for those standing outside of religions with doctrinal statements, those religions are seen sometimes as imposing dogma on their adherants: believe this or you will die, go to hell, be thrown out, etc.

        And just as certainly, people are told just those things by churches/denominations/religions with doctrinal statements. The first class in the diary comes into effect: this is the truth about God darn it - believe it or suffer the consequences.

        And, just as certainly, there are people in those groups, including my own, who have not examined their beliefs in prayer, using their reason, with the guidence of the Holy Spirit. We all got robots.

        We seem to constantly argue from the worst cases of humanity rather than its best. I joined my current church after reading over its statement of doctrine, and coming to agreement with it. However happy I am in the community, however much I love the people and enjoy the teaching - the church itself says that it has a theological foundation and that it plans to live out that theology. That theology is expressed in its doctrines.

        TKH is going to have to come to grips with the reality that regardless of whether you are talking about Jews, Christians, Muslims, neo-Pagans, atheists, etc. - none of us here are robots. None of us here have Dogma - we have doctrine: rationally and spirtually examined beliefs upon which we base our actions and worship.

        And, frankly, I have met very, very, very few religious robots in the world.

        SP's Bible in a Year: http://www.streetprophets.com/story/2005/10/19/105536/72

        by JCHFleetguy on Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 10:02:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • I have read through your last two diaries (0+ / 1-)

          Trollrated by:
          loggersbrat

          and continually see you commenting on the thoughts and beliefs of others. Do you have any "original" thoughts are beliefs of "your own" that do not simply leave it up to others to form your opinions?

          • Okay. I'm Taking A Deep Breath. (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            dirkster42, archie, Thirst, StarWoman

            You weren't addressing me.

            You were making no comments about whether or not I have and "original" thoughts about my faith.

            You were not insulting me.

            But.

            You happened to touch a nerve because you reminded me of an argument I once got into with a good friend of mine in college.

            Bill is a self-proclaimed Rational Pagan.  He says he believes only in those tenants of paganism which he has verified by his own empirical testing.

            Once we got into an online argument.  A trivial thing.  I called him a "phoob" and he took offense.  He proceeded in his next posting to tear into me, accusing me of intellectual dishonesty and of blindly accepting the dogmas I had been spoon-fed from childhood without bringing any sort of critical analysis to them; because of course if I had I would have naturally rejected them.  Since I still clung to these childish beliefs, I therefore must be intellectually dishonest.  Q.E.D.

            I was infuriated.  I had not tested my beliefs?  Where the hell did he get off saying that?  Did he know what my spiritual journey had been?  What's more, there were things about me he did know.  He knew I was a science fiction fan.  He knew I was his friend and listened to him and discussed things with him in a rational manner.  Did he really think that I had lived my entire life up 'til then without examining my beliefs?

            By the time I read his post, a week had gone by and he had cooled down; so he was confused and perplexed when I called him up to argue.  "Calm down, Kurt.  Try taking some deep breaths," he advised in his soothing baritone.  He explained to me that in calling him a "phoob" I had insulted him; and being an Alpha Male, it was his natural reaction to strike back in defense.

            I calmed down and apologized.  And hung up.

            Then I realized... I apologized to him...?

            Basically he was saying that he had a right to defend himself because he was an Alpha; but I didn't.  Presumably because I'm an Omega.

            That got me mad all over again and so I called him up again.

            Eventually I realized that it wasn't worth getting worked up about and certainly not worth ruining a friendship over.

            But I still get angry when I think about the incident.  And your dismissal of the Fleetguy as having no "original" opinions gets under my skin because it reminds me of Bill's vitrolic attack.

            Fleetguy is intelligent, well-read and thoughtful.  I agree with him much of the time; but I don't say he's thoughtful because I agree with him, I say it because he presents his thoughts in an intelligent manner.

            For that matter, some of the remarks you've made, TKH, echo arguments I've heard over the years from other people attacking theism and organized religion.  I would hesitate to say that you are merely puppeting what you've heard and have no "original" thoughts of your own.  You are clearly very sincere in what you're saying.

            Problem is, it's possible to be sincerely offensive.

            • I'm sure both you and fleetguy are (0 / 0)

              intellegent and caring people. I do not mean to insult either of you.

              I do mean to attempt to make you think about what YOU believe, and YOUR relationship to GOD without letting other people's opinions get in the way. Because I do believe that the only true religion is the relationship tht exists between YOU and GOD. There is no one, or nothing, that can guide you better than your own heart.  

              • But What I'm Hearing is... (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                dirkster42, Thirst

                "I do mean to attempt to make you think about what YOU believe..."

                ...because obviously you don't!

                If we did think about them, we obviously would not hold such orthodox views.

                Perhaps I'm reading into your comments more than they deserve, but that's the impression I'm getting.

                To which the most temperate response I can think of is...

                Share and Enjoy.

          • No I do not (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            dirkster42, Thirst, quarkstomper

            I am just a parrot. It has been said about me before, and it will be said about me again. I have never claimed my strength in life is to come up with "original" thoughts - my strength is rational defense of what I believe. And, to know what I believe.

            Of course, I do not think it is really that possible to find "original" thoughts - and I am not sure it is desirable.

            First, your diary wasn't "original". The ideas you presented a well-known, and have been argued about for centuries. Now, you may not have known that and think you came up with the ideas yourself - and in a sense, if that is true, you did.

            If you did not read them elsewhere and synthesize them from other sources in your life - it is awesome your mind works so well. Myself, I know I have read my stuff elsewhere, I know I have synthesized it from other sources - and I tend to give credit to those who I have synthesized from.

            I am not a theologian - I do not come up with deep ideas about the nature of God (few of which are truly original). I am an apologist.

            SP's Bible in a Year: http://www.streetprophets.com/story/2005/10/19/105536/72

            by JCHFleetguy on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 07:15:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            • If you did not read them elsewhere (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              JCHFleetguy

              and synthesize them from other sources in your life - it is awesome your mind works so well.

              Thank you

            • I'm sure both you and quarkstomper (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              JCHFleetguy

              are intellegent and caring people. I do not mean to insult either of you.

              I DO mean to attempt to make you think about what YOU believe, and YOUR relationship to GOD without letting anyone else's opinions get in the way.  

              I personally believe that the only true religion is the relationship that exists between each of us and GOD. There is no one, or nothing, that can guide you better than your own heart.

              • It is an insult that you somehow (4+ / 0-)

                think I haven't thought about my beliefs. I was a Marxist 12 years ago, and an atheist - one who made Mr. Dawkins and Harris look like "nice guys" when it came to trashing believers in God. Do you really think that transition came without thought and challenge?

                Do you think a theologically conservative Evangelical just gets to hang out with all these theologically liberal Christians (and other faiths) without getting opportunity to examine my beliefs?

                Now, I haven't seen that you do so well when it comes to your beliefs being challenged here - you seem to fade to the "I believe it but I do not want to defend it" stance rather often.

                For instance, you have said you do not "believe in revelation". Starwoman asked you what that meant - and you haven't answered that I have seen. Now, for me, relationship implies communication - I do not think you would say you have a relationship with a human you have no communication with. So, how is your relationship with God worked out if that God does not reveal themself to you? How do you even know what relationship you have with God without revelation of some sort? Without revelation, you are having a conversation with yourself.

                Now, if you are a deist or do not believe in a "personal God" - then you would not talk about relationship with a God that does not interact directly in His creation; or with His creatures. You do not have relationship with a "ground of being" - there is no two-way communication.

                You also dodged the question of your dismissal of those that believe that they have revelationatory relationships with God - are you saying their personal relationship with God is wrong and didn't happen? How does this fit into your concept that we each have our own valid relationship with God? If there individual relationship with God tells them that they need to band together into communities of faith with like believers - religions; then is their individual relationship with God invalid by your lights?

                As to "to your own heart be true" - that division of the human race into "islands of one" who believe they each have the key to truth has led, impo, to the bloodiest century in the history of humanity - as we each compete with others based on our own individualistic and selfish wills.

                It is exactly community, and that community's call on us to step outside our selfishness and individualism to act in concert with folks we agree to be in community with, that brings humans into common action for the betterment of others. It may be in those communities that we also oppress other communities - but the human race's ability to rationalize the oppression of others to satisfy "their own hearts" is pretty strong. Communities of faith may restrain that, or amplify it - but simply refusing to band together with like-minded folks for common action simply gives in to it completely.

                Disclaimer: that is entirely the parroted beliefs of others that I have not challenged and do not understand.

                SP's Bible in a Year: http://www.streetprophets.com/story/2005/10/19/105536/72

                by JCHFleetguy on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:15:12 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              • Proselytizing (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                dirkster42

                I DO mean to attempt to make you think about what YOU believe, and YOUR relationship to GOD without letting anyone else's opinions get in the way.  

                I personally believe that the only true religion is the relationship that exists between each of us and GOD. There is no one, or nothing, that can guide you better than your own heart.

                In other words, you want us to abandon our own religions, and convert to yours, which teaches that each person should only be guided by their own heart, and not by anyone else's opinions.

                Proselytizing is Not Allowed here on the Street.

                From the FAQ:

                1. Don't bash any specific religion.
                2. Don't bash theism in general.
                3. Don't bash atheism in general.
                4. Don't proselytize.  It is highly offensive to the rest of us.

                So kindly knock it off.

                Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

                by StarWoman on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 07:04:29 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            • Dammit... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              JCHFleetguy

              Where's the crackers button?

              Beautiful plumage  title=.
              Now I understand your claims of parrotage comment from that other diary.

              I miss so much around here during my little cat naps...

              I may have to drag out an ancient airbrush painting of an African Gray I did a long time ago and post it for you one of these days. Sometimes even a litterbox gem ain't enough.

              "Only boring people get bored" - Mary E. Hirschler

              by Marko on Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 01:03:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          • I know you didn't agree with a lot (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            JCHFleetguy, Thirst

            of the things I stated as MY beliefs in my diary. That's fine. Those are my beliefs and I wouldn't expect you too. What I would most like to hear from you is the same thing. A diary of your OWN beliefs without one single quote from any place except your own heart.

            You know, the thing is, I wouldn't disagree with anything you wrote even if it was diametrically opposite of what I believe, because one of the primary things that I do believe is that the answers for each of us are different and that my relationship with God can not, and will not, be the same as yours.

            • Actually (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              dirkster42, Thirst

              A diary of your OWN beliefs without one single quote from any place except your own heart.

              My heart tells me this would be the height of arrogance on my part. This would mean that I think I know more, and my heart is truer and more reliable, than what thousands and thousands of years in the lives of millions upon millions of people have experienced and learned.

              It would be mean a rejection of history, philosophy, family, God, church, and political theory - even if I could accomplish it.

              I do not think I can simply unhear, unlearn, unread, unthink, unexperience, etc 55 years of my life in order to come up with something that quoted no one else - I do not think so lightly of vocation and the call of things greater than myself and outside of myself.

              I am not God.

              SP's Bible in a Year: http://www.streetprophets.com/story/2005/10/19/105536/72

              by JCHFleetguy on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 11:33:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            • Incidentally (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              dirkster42, Thirst

              agreement or disagreement with what you wrote was not a primary response of mine. It really just struck me as irrelevent to my life until

              I wouldn't disagree with anything you wrote even if it was diametrically opposite of what I believe

              you did exactly this in regards to revelation.

              You indeed said you couldn't even have a conversation with someone who thought they had recieved a revelation from God.

              Indeed, your whole position about folks forming religions is anti-religion: it of course does exactly what the quote above says you do not do.

              SP's Bible in a Year: http://www.streetprophets.com/story/2005/10/19/105536/72

              by JCHFleetguy on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 11:37:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      • IMHO...There is little difference (0 / 0)

    • Not necessarily truth claims (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dirkster42

      They can be useful, but only as a starting point for discussion, which may ultimately lead to something that you can believe in, but I do not think they should be viewed as absolute truth just because someone else says they are.

      Er, the whole point of my diary was that there are other ways to view doctrine than as absolute truth claims.

      Incidentally, since doctrines are just formalized teaching, if you have indeed benefited from the teachings of many religions, then you, too, have benefited from doctrinal statements.

      Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

      by StarWoman on Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 07:07:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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