Street Prophets

Religion and Politics News Roundup

Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 09:45:14 AM PDT

Today's topics: Eliot Spitzer resigns, Geraldine Ferraro defends comments, Andre Carson elected to U.S. Congress, U.S. Embassy encourages Peace Corps volunteers and Fulbright scholars to spy on Bolivians,...

This is what they talk about at the Dallas Morning News...

Jeffrey Weiss of Dallas Morning News's Religion Blog writes:

A discussion I'm having with my colleagues and we mull the image of New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer's wife next to him as he resigns:

Would it have been worse for her -- emotionally and morally, not politically -- if he'd had an affair? Would it have been more wrong if he'd allowed himself to become emotionally and/or sexually involved with another woman? Rather than simply using the high-priced prostitutes for physical release? Does this make it more or less likely that he'd be able to salvage his marriage?

From an XY chromosome perspective, I think it would be worse if he'd had an affair...

Don't laugh! Weiss is totally serious...

...Spitzer was "simply" exploiting women for his own enjoyment. Isn't that better than having consensual sex with a woman he might actually care about?

Uh, no.

Mary Jacob at the United Methodist Reporter Blog responds:

Affairs are immoral; prostitutes are immoral AND illegal.  And given that Spitzer is an elected official, I think "illegal" adds another layer of moral culpability here.

And - in my book, there's something that ain't right about a man who can order up a woman like a pair of pants. Did it ever occur to him that each of these women he "purchased" was somebody's daughter?  That tells me he's able, at some level, to dehumanize women. What does that say about his ability to govern 50% of the population he's vowed to serve?

While I disagree with the implication that being "somebody's daughter" is what gives women value, the rest of her critique is right on target.

Spitzer resigned yesterday.

Ferraro defends racist comments

In other resignation news, Geraldine Ferraro has stepped down from her position on Hillary Clinton's finance committee -- but not from her assertion that Barack Obama's campaign has only been successful because he is African American. In her exact words, Barack Obama is "very lucky" to be an African American man running for president. CNN reports:

Obama responded Wednesday to Ferraro's comments, saying "I think that her comments were ... ridiculous. ... I think they were wrong-headed. I think they are not borne out by our history or by the facts."

"The notion that it is a great advantage to me, an African-American named Barack Obama, in pursuit of the presidency I think is not a view that has been commonly shared by the general public," he said during a campaign event at the Chicago History Museum.

Ferraro has also threatened that she will not solicit donations for Barack Obama in the future if he doesn't cease his "horrendous attacks." In the following quotation addressed to the former vice-presidential nominee," Marry in Massachusetts offers a sharp analysis:

You're saying — in full context — this Black man got where he was because people cut him slack for his race. Then you pile it on telling him he'd better know his place because you have so much power.

A Hopeful Sign

On Tuesday, Andre Carson, a Democrat from Indiana, became the second Muslim elected to the U.S. Congress. Hat tip to Melissa Rogers. Amad covered the story in a front-page Street Prophets post yesterday, so visit his post for more discussion.

Very "Alias"

Jean Friedman-Rudovsky at In These Times discloses that the U.S. Embassy in Bolivia encouraged Peace Corps and Fulbright program participants to spy for the U.S. government. Members of both programs showed integrity in refusing. Friedman-Rudovsky reports on a visit to Peace Corps volunteers by Assistant Regional Security Adviser Vincent Cooper, who encouraged them in some way to report on the activities of Bolivians:

“We were immediately alarmed by the request,” said Peace Corps Bolivia Deputy Director Doreen Salazar in an interview during the initial investigation. “We stopped the meeting and made clear to our group that they had no obligation to report anything to the embassy.”


Tags: religion, politics, Shelby Meyerhoff, news (all tags)

Permalink | 29 comments

  • The bimbo knew what she was doing. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ogre, vgranucci

    She was dehumanizing herself. We're supposed to say, "Oh, you pore li'l thang"?

    • Woah! (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vansterdam, vgranucci, grada3784, NWReader

      Keep the "bimbo" language off my posts. Prostitution is an illegal industry that uses violence and power to abuse women.

      • Uh... (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        vansterdam, Aunt Em, vgranucci, grada3784

        Not always.

        That's true of much of prostitution, particularly lower dollar prostitution.  

        From what I've seen in the last day, it appears that the prostitute in this particular case doesn't appear to have been brought into it or kept there through violence or threat.

        Delicate subject.

        The light is at home in the darkness. -- Parmenides

        by ogre on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 10:42:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • Indeed. (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ogre, Rusty Pipes, vgranucci, grada3784

          Although perhaps the power Shelby refers to is not of the coercive sort, but rather that which some members of society hold, and vast numbers of others do not.

          At any rate, it doesn't really advance the conversation to subject this young woman to further scorn.

          Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle. -Philo of Alexandria

          by vansterdam on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 10:55:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • Same standard as with Spitzer (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            vansterdam, grada3784

            --though he falls farther and harder, because he climbed up on the Mr. Clean image.

            Questions for each of them:

            Did you know that what you were doing was wrong?  

            Did you know it was illegal?

            I suspect that both of them would answer "yes."  Twist turn, writhe... but say yes.

            What the hell were you thinking?

            Both deserve their moment in the modern equivalent of the public pillory--no throwing things, folks--and then should be permitted to try to put their lives back together and move on.  Life's short, and forgiveness as precious as water.

            I don't expect people not to make mistakes.  I do expect them to learn from them.  She's learning that accepting money from wealthy and powerful people to do things that are generally deemed illegal and immoral is a fast way to get your 15 minutes of fame in an unpleasant way.  As unpleasant lessons go, that's unpleasant... but not really that horrible.  No marks, no scars.

            Respect is something that we offer like trust, on assumptions.  She and Spitzer get to try to recover the right to expect much respect from people at large.  That's a long road.

            The light is at home in the darkness. -- Parmenides

            by ogre on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:38:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          • Re: Indeed (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            vansterdam

            Yes, I was thinking not only of physical violence and power, but also of social power (i.e. the power that some people have and other people don't as a result of their race, gender, sexual orientation, income, health, language, or other factors). Thanks for pointing that out.

        • Re: Uh (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          ogre, Rusty Pipes, grada3784

          Hi Ogre. It is a delicate subject, and I'm no expert. Of course it is possible that some woman somewhere has chosen to be a prostitute completely of her own free will (as Sister Quaterstaff posits below). However, I do think in most cases women end up as prostitutes due to a lack of power and/or money, or due to abuse.

          CNN ran a story today that quoted the MySpace page of Ashley Dupre (the prostitute in the Spitzer case):

          "Dupre writes that she left home at 17 to begin "my odyssey to New York."

          "It was my decision, and I've never looked back," she writes. "Left my hometown. Left a broken family. Left abuse. Left an older brother who had already split. Left and learned what it was like to have everything, and lose it, again and again.

          "Learned what it was like to wake up one day and have the people you care about most gone. I have been alone. I have abused drugs. I have been broke and homeless. But, I survived, on my own. I am here, in NY because of my music."

          She had an abusive home life, as well as a more recent history of drug addiction and financial destitution. This isn't to demean her in any way, but simply to point out that she was in a situation where she had very little power.

          Also today on CNN is the story of a 16-year-old girl from Mexico who was kidnapped, brought to the United States, and forced into prostitution. Obviously many men paid to rape her without caring about the fact that she was padlocked in a room.

          While not every single prostitute is necessarily being held down by violence or an imbalance of power, the industry as a whole encourages -- and even depends on -- coercing women against their will.

          • Quite. (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            vansterdam

            No argument.

            But Dupre chose a means of making money that didn't demand 40 hours a week of often boring work.  I've known artists and musicians who were all about their art... and were making donuts or waiting tables.

            I'm not judging an act of desperation, but what appears to have been a way of, well--her words--"having everything" (again).

            The sense that one is entitled to having everything is, I think, a major cultural flaw.  She hasn't stated it, but there's a sense in that quote that honest, crappy paying work is perceived as being beneath her.  It's the same psychology as people who've had rough lives and are dealing drugs (not at the street level, which is fiscally and otherwise on a par with street prostitution).

            Self worth set in dollars, perhaps--a very, very dangerous thing to do (and one that I'd like to point out that UUs are dangerously vulnerable to).

            The light is at home in the darkness. -- Parmenides

            by ogre on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:41:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      • Sorry about the B word, but after getting 3 (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        vansterdam, Aunt Em, vgranucci, grada3784

        hours of sleep last night (long story), I'm not in the best mood. I'm p.o.'d  that Spitzer could have been such an idiot, and of course it's been pointed out that RUDY! did worse things and nobody cared.

        I stand by my statement, though: as ogre points out, the young lady was probably not forced by economic necessity to go into her line of work. So I'm not going to waste my limited amount of sympathy on her. Spitzer is a moron, but he's not exploiting some innocent young thing. She sure seems to be doing it willingly.

        /rant

  • Immoral behavior (6+ / 0-)

    &  illegal behavior are not synonymous. If  Spitzer had an affair, he'd still be  in office. Many married  people  have affairs  with the tacit approval of  spouses,  acknowledging that they are little  more than opportunities for  intimacy in aging marriages that lack intimacy but are still glued together otherwise.  

    "There ain't no sanity clause." Chico Marx http://wfmu.org/playlists/RX

    by Asbury Park on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 10:31:06 AM PDT

    • Spitzer (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vgranucci, grada3784

      would have probably survived, yes.  But he'd have been more damaged than an equivalent, normal gutter-grade politician.

      The bottom line is that there are standards we hold people to.  If you hold people to a higher standard, people damned well expect that you live up to it--this is why ministerial failings are so highly charged.  Those who've been portraying paragon are expected to be pretty darned close.

      Spitzer played Mr. Clean, and ran on that.  Obviously, the people liked that--someone who'd raked the scum of Wall Street (and elsewhere) over the hot coals... and would continue to do so.  But such a person has to not be found in bed with them, etc.--as well as being effective.

      Spitzer hoist himself on his own petard.  I called for his resignation (and would do so again), and found that when he did I was still sad, not happy.  Sad for him, and for the state of New York.

      I hope that Paterson turns out to be a better governor.

      The light is at home in the darkness. -- Parmenides

      by ogre on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 10:49:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • Prostitution is illegal, (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ogre

        Spitzer had prosecuted prostitution  rings  with  much  media  fanfare,  & he  had none  of  the rationales for seeing a  prostitute that  we tend to accept  if  not approve.  

        "There ain't no sanity clause." Chico Marx http://wfmu.org/playlists/RX

        by Asbury Park on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 08:24:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    • Re: Immoral behavior (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Rusty Pipes

      Hi Asbury,

      I think you're right that Spitzer would be treated quite differently if he had had an affair rather than hiring a woman for sex.

      Although maybe it's not directly related, your comment made me think of a recent post by Rev. Debra Haffner at Huffington Post. She writes,

      In my more than 30 years of counseling and educating adults about their sexuality, I know that there are many ways that couples create contracts, explicit as well as unspoken, about their understanding of monogamy.

      While I find it hard to believe that married people can have multiple partners and still maintain a strong relationship, I respect people's right to choose an open marriage. It would be interesting to see what the public discussion would be if a well-known figure (man or woman) came out publicly and said "well, we have an open marriage." But that's not likely to happen anytime soon!

      (And even if the Spitzers or another high-profile couple had such an agreement, that would NOT make it ok to hire a prostitute).

  • I have issues (4+ / 0-)

    with the idea that hiring someone to have sex with you is inherently different from hiring them to perform another service like, say, a massage therapist or a psychiatrist (that is, I understand arguments about exploitation and so on; my point is that assuming that a prostitute has as much freedom to choose her jobs and clients as a massage therapist does, I don't see that it's inherently different—it's the exploitation that's wrong and not the prostitution).

    Given that, as the post you linked to said, Spitzer is a public official, I think overall it is more wrong for him to have hired prostitutes than for him to have an affair. However, if he had hired prostitutes legally in Nevada, I would think it was more wrong for him to have an affair, and if it were a private citizen (even one I was married to!) I would say having an extended, emotionally-involved affair is worse than hiring a prostitute occasionally.

    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." ~Galileo Galilei

    by Sister Quarterstaff of Undeclared Grace on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 10:56:02 AM PDT

    • The difference is in the assumption. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vansterdam, Asbury Park

      I'm not sure that a prostitute has the freedom you assume she does.  

      It would be interesting to read a psycho-sociological study of prostitutes.  IF this is a freely chosen career path, why did the women make that choice?  What kinds of backgrounds do these women come from?  Are there underlying emotional issues that are coming to play?  (I have read that girls who are neglected by their fathers are at greater risk of engaging in dangerous and/or promiscuous behavior when they grow up.)  Is the income potential versus amount of "work" required part of the equation?  If all things were equal, if money were no barrier, what would make a young woman choose to be a prostitute versus, say, a veterinarian?  

      Tolle crucem, qui vis auferre coronam.

      by NWReader on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 11:33:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • That is a complicated answer (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        vansterdam

        in every case.  All backgrounds.  Sometimes yes, to underlying emotional issues, including family problems.  

        Sometimes yes, to the income potential vs. amount of "work," (and sometimes because the difference in earning potential (based on level of education) is always going to be insurmountable.)

        Yes to many, or all, of the things you listed above, in various combinations.  No, to all of the above (sometimes).

        It really depends on the individual person.

      • There was a study done recently (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        grada3784, Icelander

        (well, 3-4 years ago) in (IIRC) Aberdeen, Scotland. It found that the vast majority of prostitutes in that city were full-time university students who were otherwise healthy and well-adjusted and simply found sex to be an easier way to earn significantly more money than traditional occupations that full-time students engage in (waitressing, retail, menial office jobs).

        And if you read carefully, I absolutely did not say that I assume any such thing. I said that I do not believe that prostitution is itself inherently wrong, with "inherently" being defined as "if all things were otherwise equal, and if said equality included the assumption that prostitutes had freedom to choose their clients." And that my objection was to the exploitation and not to the sexual act per se.

        Perhaps your hypothetical woman likes having sex more than she likes cats. Perhaps she's better at pleasing men (or women) sexually than she is at biology. Perhaps she has a body that she's proud of and wants to show to others. Why does anyone choose one career over another if money is no object? Presumably because they like it and because they're good at it.

        "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." ~Galileo Galilei

        by Sister Quarterstaff of Undeclared Grace on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 11:56:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      • Freedom (0 / 0)

        I'm not sure that a prostitute has the freedom you assume she does.  

        I'm pretty sure that has more to do with prostitution being illegal and less to do with the nature of the occupation. Because it's illegal, you've got to sneak around and hide from the police, which means that you've got to rely on someone else for protection, someone who will use violence to intimidate you into staying in the business when you want out.

        Get it out of the alleys and into regulated brothels, and I think you'll see  violence go down, along with drug use and STD rates.

        "And the righteous few will spit on you, so bid them all farewell" - Streetlight Manifesto, "Down, Down, Down to Mephisto's Cafe"

        by Icelander on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 01:48:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    • When McGreevey (0 / 0)

      came out of  the  closet, the problem wasn't so  much that he was gay as that he was a  liar, a sneak, & a hypocrite to his  wife & to us. So his  whole "I am  gay American" resignation speech was like, oh sheesh,  give  us a break. That's pretty much how New Yorkers feel  about Spitzer.

      "There ain't no sanity clause." Chico Marx http://wfmu.org/playlists/RX

      by Asbury Park on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 08:31:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • It's interesting (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    grada3784

    Paul saw no difference between marriage and sex with a prostitute (and said it like it was general knowledge in the church). He used the exact same language for both; and the exact language Christ used as well:

    Matthew 19:3 Then some Pharisees came to him in order to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful to divorce a wife for any cause?" 4 He answered, "Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be united with his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate."

    1 Corinthians 6:15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Should I take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Or do you not know that anyone who is united with a prostitute is one body with her? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17 But the one united with the Lord is one spirit with him. 18 Flee sexual immorality! "Every sin a person commits is outside of the body" – but the immoral person sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

    We can make secular distinctions between what is legal and illegal by secular law. However (and not having researched Spitzer's theological beliefs), from Paul's perspective having sex with a prostitute is the same as marrying her - and is as much adultery whether it an "emotional" or financial relationship.

    Of course, I think that is a revelation that is directed at Christians, and not generally - and I do not know whether it applies to Spitzer at all.  

    SP's Bible in a Year: http://www.streetprophets.com/story/2005/10/19/105536/72

    by JCHFleetguy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 11:16:18 AM PDT

    • That's a Jewish teaching. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      JCHFleetguy, grada3784

      So not revelation. Christ and Paul used that language because they were Jewish.

      Modern Judaism still teaches that sex = marriage, though not many Jews talk about it.

      "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." ~Galileo Galilei

      by Sister Quarterstaff of Undeclared Grace on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 11:59:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • That just broadens the revelation (0 / 0)

        I believe in natural moral law - and I do not think that is a general revelation to all humans. I think it is a revelation to a narrower set of folks - but, thanks to your info, a broader narrower group now :-)

        SP's Bible in a Year: http://www.streetprophets.com/story/2005/10/19/105536/72

        by JCHFleetguy on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 02:46:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  • like your ablity (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    grada3784
    to recognize anti woman rhetoric. Good stuff
  • Is anybody going to say (0 / 0)

    that he's a sex addict and should go to SA or SLAA? Maybe he and Bill Clinton can go together.

    Beyond stupid and immoral, there's compulsion. When an bright person does something this dumb and self-destructive (not to mention wife-destructive), it's possible that there's a factor not accounted for.

    "...there has never been a conservative prophet."
    --Obery M. Hendricks Jr. in The Politics of Jesus.

    by rosel on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 06:54:15 PM PDT

  • On the other topic... (0 / 0)

    Not that it isn't interesting, but Spitzer is done.

    I am a tad unclear about all manners of prostitution.  Certainly some are exploitive and violent and should reasonably be opposed.

    However, I have only known of one person who consorted with such women openly and on a regular basis.  He happened to be a VietNam vet who had the misfortune of having about half of his face shot off.  The wound was so bad that the medics packed it off with a pressure dressing and waited three days expecting him to die of ceberal hemorrage.  When, after three days, he did not expire, they began the restorative surgery.  The results of field hospital restorative surgery is not a thing of beauty, but it did fill in the gaps.

    At any rate, having lost an eye, an ear, a fair amount of function in what remained, the VA was sending him a check of about $2000 a month for the rest of his life.  He managed after a good bit of rehab to land a decent job, where we met.

    The long and short of it was that he took his $2000 every month down to a local adult nightclub and spent it quite liberally, and often enough ended up with some companionship.  Even looking back on it now, I find it as sad as I did then, but not objectionably so.

    The other topic is Ferraro.  

    When playing golf, as I occasionally do, I note that most men, when they hit a bad shot will blame everything but the obvious.  They will blame the wind, the clubs, the condition of the golf course, noises, distractions, virtually anything but the idiot swinging the club.

    The Clinton campaign seems to have hit this mark.  Barack is winning because caucuses are undemocratic, because his supporters are stupid, confused, or delusional, because he promises anything, and now because he is black.

    The actual answer goes more like this.  Any organization that can take a candidate with 99% name recognition and 150+ million dollars to make their case and still manage to only come in second, is plainly incompetent.

    There is a corrollary:  Any campaign that can take on a candidate with 99% name recognition, all the top drawer talent money can buy, and 150+ million dollars to spend, and cause it to come in second place by simply doing an end run to Kansas, Idaho and other less traveled destinations, is plainly brilliant.

    Ms. Ferraro:

    Barack is not there because he is black, he is there because he, by himself, is simply smarter than the entire "brain trust" Hillary has recruited to run her campaign.  Worse yet, he hired even smarter help.

    From where Hillary started the year, there is no other tenable explanation.

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