Street Prophets

Barna Group: Evangelicals Just As Moral As Atheists! Maybe More!

Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 09:06:01 AM PDT

Srsly:

In fact, when evangelicals and non-evangelical born again Christians are combined into an aggregate class of born again adults, their divorce figure is statistically identical to that of non-born again adults: 32% versus 33%, respectively.

Thirty percent of atheists and agnostics had been married and subsequently divorced. However, the three-point difference from the national average was within the range of sampling error, suggesting that their likelihood of experiencing a dissolved marriage is the same as that of the population at-large. A representative from Barna also pointed out the atheists and agnostics have lower rates of marriage and a higher likelihood of cohabitation, a combination of behaviors that distort comparisons with other segments.

I'm no demographer - and I just said the other day that Barna has a very good reputation - but it seems to me that when your samples look like this:

something's a little goofy. Perhaps I'm wrong about that.

But even if I am, what the hell? That Evangelical Christians have a modestly better chance of staying married than atheists proves what, exactly? The proper comparison is to long-term relationships, since as Barna points out, atheists and agnostics tend not to marry as often in the first place. And even so, so what?

Seriously.

  • ::


Tags: Demographics, Polls, Marriage, Christianity (all tags)

Permalink | 55 comments

  • So marriage equals morality now? (7+ / 0-)

    And divorce equals immorality? That's news to me.

    And what does it matter what someone believes if they're a good person. If someone is a good person because they think it will make Elvis come back and give us all wicked sideburns, they're still a good person.

    "We can prove Hitler wasn't an atheist because, unlike atheism, Hitler at least was popular."

    by Icelander on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 09:47:44 AM PDT

  • Seems to me that (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    krwada, grada3784, linkage, waterdish

    your answer is in the sample size. Look at the various differences between the groups in number of interviewees. It's almost as if they kept interviewing people of a certain group (or stopped interviewing people of another group) once they had the stats they wanted to get.

  • What jumps off the page for me is (8+ / 0-)

    the strongest predictors for staying married seem to be that someone is 1)asian 2)upscale 3) conservative.

    But, overall what this table is saying seems to be that the much bandied 50% American divorce rate drops significantly when instead of comparing number of marriage licenses to number of divorce certificates, you ask individuals if they have ever been divorced. That deals with the obvious possibility that some (many?) people divorce more than once.

    Once you noticed that "Communities which tolerate Divorce have more divorces than communities which do not" ... you're still left with the task of establishing what proportion of those who do not are in a state of "constructive desertion" ... of those, what portion are adulterous ... and it probably makes sense to factor in variation based on State and Region --  and compare THAT to Northern and Southern European statistics. The opportunities to   generate complex tables charts and graphs is endless.  But to what practical purpose ?

    Having seen the marriage issue discussed statistically for nearly 50 years -- I'm not sure that "the numbers" are good for much except capturing an audience's interest before trying to persuade them of something.

    Communities and polities may want to consider the question "Which is worse social policy: enabling divorces or preserving toxic marriages ?"

    But for individuals, isn't the issue is "how to have a healthy marriage?"

    Still: we've got reason to think  the average American divorce rate is 33% rather than the previously believed 50%.  Is the glass 2/3 full or 1/3 empty?  And what to do about it ?

  • Another flaw (6+ / 0-)

    What about people who were divorced before they changed their religion? That would skew the results.

    "We can prove Hitler wasn't an atheist because, unlike atheism, Hitler at least was popular."

    by Icelander on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:47:58 AM PDT

  • Is this the same survey that was referred to in (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    vgranucci, krwada, linkage

    Scandal of the evangelical community?  I think that was the title of the book from about 4-5 years ago.

    Or is it a more current survey?

    I actually prefer the state by state reporting, where Bible Belt states had about twice the divorce rates of Massachusetts.  Got a good laugh out of that one.

    This time, can we elect a President? Please, not another clown.

    by grada3784 on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 12:22:37 PM PDT

  • Study shows poverty isn't good for marriage (11+ / 0-)

    "Love is like butter- it goes well with bread" - Yiddish proverb, quoted elsewhere on SP

    The one statistic that jumps out of this study is that 39% of all poor people are divorced. The inference I draw from this statistic is that poverty isn't good for marriage, and I also draw a further inference that  in order to lower the divorce race, we need to end poverty.

    OH. How anti American can you get?

    The road to enlightenment is more fun on a motorcycle

    by la motocycliste on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 12:44:09 PM PDT

    • When my husband and I were first married (10+ / 0-)

      we fought about money ALL THE TIME.

      Then, at some point, those fights became less common. One day I noticed this, and stopped to think about it. I realized that 1) we weren't fighting about money anymore and 2) we were bringing in twice what we had been when we'd first gotten married.

      That was the only thing that changed -- money. We weren't better people, we weren't any wiser or more patient with each other, we were just richer. Twice as rich.

      It was a sobering realization, it made me wonder how people manage to stay together at all, if in addition to the regular stresses of life there is that constant fear and anxiety that poverty brings.

      Montani semper liberi

      by Sadie Baker on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 12:56:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • No, no, no.... (8+ / 0-)

      Silly motocycliste, you don't lower the divorce rate by ending poverty -- you end poverty by lowering the divorce rate, and raising the marriage rate!

      Or at least, so the current crop of inmates running the asylum would have us  believe. There are huge ads on city buses in my area, showing pictures of brides and captions about how married people are better off financially than people who aren't married.

      Sigh.

      Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

      by StarWoman on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 01:14:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • Baltimore by any chance? (4+ / 0-)

        I saw billboards like that in my last swing through.

      • side effects of our silliness (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        linkage

        Giggle... OK -- if we are going to be really silly, let us consider the implications.  Using your arguement that one should increase marriage to reduce poverty, creates another postive arguement for equal marriage.  Homosexual marriage reduces poverty!  OF course, why didn't we think of it before.

        • I love it!!! (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          linkage

          Quick, somebody call a press conference!

          ;)

          Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

          by StarWoman on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:35:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        • Actually no, it's unlikely to work that way (0 / 0)

          Gay marriage would have the effect of increasing divorce rates among gay couples. (You can't get divorced unless you get married first.) An unmarried couple that separates has no requirements for legal expenses or separation of assets.  In a legal gay marriage, assets will by usually divided 50/50 upon divorce (assuming the now-prevalent no fault divorce laws), meaning that the wealthier party loses a very large proportion of personal wealth, as well as the household being divided in two, each with half the previous wealth.  The result will bias any statistics toward a correlation between both having been married and being poorer as well as getting divorced and being poorer.  

          It's a lesson on how to read statistics and come up with wrong conclusions.

      • That's not the intent (0 / 0)

        Too many poor people are having children without being married first, then requesting state assistance. If these poor people would only get married and stay married, they would be less likely to qualify for state assistance for the children. Thus, the billboards.

        Sounds like a good argument for NOT getting married.

        The road to enlightenment is more fun on a motorcycle

        by la motocycliste on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 09:21:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  • "So what?" he says! (7+ / 0-)

    Let's set aside the clear sample-size bias and assume that these stats reflect reality. Contradicting Dan's "So what?" 'tude is the rank hypocrisy of "born again" Christians squealing about the "sanctity" of marriage WRT same-sex unions, when their own marriages are sooooo sacred that a full THIRD of them end in divorce!

    Wankers ...

  • My father ... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    grada3784, linkage

    a Southern Baptist preacher, divorced my mom in the late 70s after preaching about the evils of divorce for years.

    He never pastored another church after that. At least the Baptists weren't as hypocritical as they are now, allowing divorced pastors and even confessed adulterers to continue to hold their pulpits (mainly because they bring in the cash ... but that's another story).

    Whosoever: An Online Magazine for GLBT Christians at whosoever.org

    by revtheodyke on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 01:37:52 PM PDT

    • My mother (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      linkage

      was teaching high school English at a Baptist school when word came out that she was dating a divorced man (my father). The school gave her the option to break up with him or to resign. (She resigned.)

      Didn't matter to them why my father and his first wife were divorced (she was having an affair with their pastor, the man who married them, and she was so ashamed that she asked for a divorce). Divorce in the eyes of my mom's school was sin, no ifs/ands/buts.

      • Weirdly, (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        virgomusic, santiago, linkage

        divorce does not seem to be a sin according to current Roman Catholic thought.

        This is unfortunate. The reason it's not a sin is that it effectively does not exist. I may have a legal divorce, but in the eyes of the church, I am still married.

        I want divorce to be a sin, dammit. If it were a sin, I could go to confession and do my penance and be absolved and get on with my life. Current official RC theology on divorce is not life-giving, not by any means.

        Sigh. One of these days I'll write a paper on it. Meanwhile, this is one of the topics I'm carefully, hesitantly researching in my spare time.

        Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

        by StarWoman on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:05:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • Divorce may not be a sin (0 / 0)

          But getting divorced and then fornicating, to put the technical term on it, with someone else you hook up with or even marry in civil ceremony is a sin.  That's why remarried divorced persons are usually asked to consider not going to communion while they are living like that. As far as the RC church goes, there is not  real difference between a divorced person who remarries and an adulterer/ess.  Different pastors or spiritual advisers will advise differently on this, however, case by case.

          • I am (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            santiago

            of course FULLY aware of this.

            And as I said:

            Current official RC theology on divorce is not life-giving, not by any means.

            Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

            by StarWoman on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:51:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            • I know you are ... (0 / 0)

              and certainly much more knowledgeable on theological matters than me as well. I just think my intuition on this issue might provide more insight.

              I just don't take as negative a view on this as you seem to.  It's just not as bad, as a Catholic, to live with sin as I think you seem to make it out to be.  

              For example, if you really think that whatever is going on in one's marriage, or lack thereof, justifies falling in love with someone you're not married to and expressing that love sexually, then it SHOULD give you pause to think about your life and your relationship with God before you receive the Eucharist, shouldn't it?

              And if it means rebelling in some way to a Church teaching and receiving the Eucharist anyway because it really is in the depth of one's conscience to do so, then no harm has been done by challenging a man or woman to look deep into their conscience.  

              There's nothing that denies life in agitating people about their educated consciences, is there?  Quite the opposite, I think.

              • On this topic, (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                santiago

                I am raw and in pain.

                Agitation is not helpful.

                Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

                by StarWoman on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:34:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                • I'm sorry; (0 / 0)

                  I truly feel for you, and I don't want you to take this as flippant or in any way dismissive of the pain you are in on this matter:  But such pain is the nature of a Cross, isn't it? Like death is part of the  nature of life. I think it's how you, personally and uniquely, are being called to follow in Christ's steps. The Church, meaning the people like me and you who make it up, may be there for you in community and prayer in your pain and may be able to help you carry the cross a little, but it might not be our place to relieve you of it's ultimate destination even as we wish we could.

  • The music downtown (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tbrucegodfrey, linkage

    The  only time I hear "urban  contemporary" pop music is when I'm downtown in the crummy retail stores. I notice that:

    1. Every song is  about getting laid.
    1. The female singers express unrealistic hopes for love &  fidelity.
    1. The male singers express no  such hopes.
    1. Nobody sings  about marriage.
    1.  "Baby" never refers to a pooping,  crying infant.

    "There ain't no sanity clause." Chico Marx http://wfmu.org/playlists/RX

    by Asbury Park on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:38:41 PM PDT

    • That's the pop music (0 / 0)

      If you listened to popular rock these days, you'd think all kids ever did was wear black and whine about things.

      Pop music simply represents the lowest common denominator. That's why I don't listen to any of it, and don't recommend it to anyone else.

      "We can prove Hitler wasn't an atheist because, unlike atheism, Hitler at least was popular."

      by Icelander on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:00:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • Franks Zappa commented on this (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Icelander

      He said that he didn't write love songs because they're all about dysfunctional relationships; if you look at the lyrics of most of them, they are.  I believe that this comment was somehow directed at Paul McCartney, because McCartney's "Silly Love Songs" was written in response.

      Ask me about my vow of silence!

      by The Red Pen on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:19:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • Reminds me (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        tbrucegodfrey

        of when I worked in a retail store & pointed out to coworkers that 90% of the songs played through  the ceiling speakers were lies & gave bad advice. They were surprised I listened to the lyrics.  

        "There ain't no sanity clause." Chico Marx http://wfmu.org/playlists/RX

        by Asbury Park on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:35:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  • Perhaps a certain weighting (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tbrucegodfrey, santiago

    occurs because many women who are middle class become poor upon divorce.

    Of course, it's not exclusively women. Three of the five guys I've had living here as roommates over the last thirteen years were here because they had got divorced and once child support was set, were not making enough to afford their own place. (Well, they were, until you factored in the child support.)

    Oldest of the Old Ones, I am, Mother of the stars and of the earth.

    by Alexandra Lynch on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 08:35:23 PM PDT

  • In prison numbers, an indicator of morality? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    tbrucegodfrey

    I seem to recall that a study of prisoner declared
    religious afiliation, or none, showed Atheists at less than one percent.

    Does this suggest anything re moral behavior?

  • Atheists (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    santiago

    It may be of statistical use to note that atheists skew strongly white and to a lesser extent Asian, and upscale.  The most miserable place in the country to start an atheist group, I would imagine, would be Anacostia, DC, which is 95% black and profoundly downscale.

  • Statistically, no conclusions can be drawn (0 / 0)

    from the data table provided by Barna.  You'd have to buy the survey to see the correlations between multiple variables and divorce rates to be able to conclude anything.  (That's actually the purpose of the table -- to sell the full survey results to interested parties.)

    For example, the only really strong differences between divorced and non-divorced people within the categories provided are upscale vs. downscale and liberals vs. conservatives.  However, divorce has the effect of both incurring legal expenses as well as dividing household incomes in two, so divorce will necessarily bias results to lower income and wealth levels.  There are also good reasons to believe that wealthier married households are correlated with both being conservative (the low-taxes coalition) and having an incentive to stay married.  The parties of wealthier married household may enjoy financial securities in lieu of marital bliss that parties in lower income households don't enjoy, so we should expect the wealthy have fewer incentives to divorce than the poor, all else held constant.  

    There's just no way to conclude anything about divorce and religious affiliation without the kind of multi-variable analysis that you have to pay for.  

Permalink | 55 comments