Street Prophets

Dear Jim Wallis: Who Is "We"?

Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 06:52:14 AM PST

The man from Sojourners oozes patriarchy in response to his readers' questions about discouraging abortions:

Support for women caught up in difficult situations and tragic choices is a better path than coercion for really reducing the abortion rate. Yes, I agree there is never a "need" for abortion except in the case where the health of the mother is threatened. But until we can reach out to women who "feel" the need for abortion and support them in alternative choices, we will never change the shameful abortion rate that both sides seem content to live with while they just attack each other. It is time to move from symbols to solutions.

So that scared teenager who got pregnant with her sorta-kinda-maybe boyfriend who she doesn't know if she really wants to commit to for the rest of her life? Well, she doesn't really "need" an abortion. What she needs is for someone - perhaps a mid-fifties political player and father figure in Washington D.C. - to tell her how she should "feel."

Ditto the scared teenager who got pregnant because her cousin or her brother or her father has been sexually terrorizing her night after night. She doesn't really "need" an abortion. She just "feels" that she needs one. If only she had someone to steer her straight, maybe she'd make better choices.

Ditto the poor woman who already has mouths she doesn't know how to feed.

Ditto the woman whose husband or boyfriend beats her for any little reason or no reason at all.

Ditto the woman on the Pinewood Reservation who got raped by a stranger from another state just looking for a good time.

They don't really "need" an abortion. And they don't really know what they "feel."

At least, they don't until "we" reach out to them.

And pray tell who, Rev. Wallis, is "we"?

This is everything that's wrong with the argument that Democrats could reach untold numbers of voters if they'd only bend a little on abortion, or "change the conversation" as Wallis and his friends are so fond of saying, distilled down into a single little lump of stupid and arrogance.

It starts with the premise that the issue of abortion is a moral one. But what that means on a practical level is that Jim Wallis wants the political power to enforce his moral vision, whether he understands that or not. "Support them in alternative choices," nothing. Wallis wants to make it safe for Democrats to tell women what they're supposed to do with their bodies, and why.

There is no room here for women to be themselves moral agents, let alone make their own practical decisions. They need to coached to do the right thing according to Jim Wallis and his friends in Washington who will calibrate government policy precisely to "reach out" to their confused selves and bring to them the enlightened truth that they have no need to control their bodies or their destinies short a threat to their lives.

It is painfully obvious that Wallis believes that without a Big Daddy government, women will choose wrongly, and the "shameful abortion rate" will continue. It never seems to occur to him that that rate does not reflect mere convenience or women taking control of their bodies.

This is literally the most patronizing attempt to legislate morality that I have seen in a long long time, outside of the Bush administration. It is smug, elitist and condescending. There is no vision of social benefit, no argument about the values of one policy option over another. When it boils down to it, the purpose of this dubious proposal is to make the Democratic party safe for people like Wallis and other pro-lifers who want to act upon women in the guise of "reaching out to them."

I don't want to hear any more crap about how "we're all on the same team." Until Jim Wallis can start his discussion of abortion with the recognition that women are moral agents in their own right and don't need him to guide their decision-making, we're not on the same team at all.

(Cookies to Thurman.)

  • ::


Tags: Jim Wallis, Abortion, Evangelicals (all tags)

Permalink | 161 comments

    • I see some postives and negatives (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      grada3784, Thirst

      in Wallis' response.  He is supporting the Democratic Platform and trying to convince people who are progressive on other issues and pro-life to vote for Obama.

      Just as there are a wide variety of women, there are a variety of factors that contribute to women's choices to terminate pregnancies.  Some women choose to have an abortion because they cannot afford to see a pregnancy through or to parent a child.  The programs that Wallis supports would make it more possible for these women to choose to carry their pregnancies through to term.  This could reduce the number of abortions, a goal Wallis shares with many pro-lifers.

      The problem of promoting this platform as THE solution is that lack of resources is not the only reason why women choose to terminate a pregnancy.  (It will not eliminate any of the reasons on your list, PD).  So, these proposals alone will not eliminate all women's desire and yes, need, for abortions.

      I am glad that Wallis is trying to convince some of his more liberal evangelical friends to vote a Democratic ticket.  However, he is not the voice of the Democratic Party:

      I agree there is never a "need" for abortion except in the case where the health of the mother is threatened.

      As RCRC has demonstrated, his is not the only religious perspective on women's reproductive health that should be heard by the Democratic Party.
       

      When I fall on my face with my knees to the rising sun, oh Lord, have mercy on me.

      by Rusty Pipes on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 03:19:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • Bravo, PD! (4+ / 0-)

      You are getting a lot done. Loved the janglin' keys thing I saw over at the Orange place. That sucker won't load, so I thought Hey! PD's place.....

  • It Was Ever Thus (12+ / 0-)

    This aging feminist is as much sad as angry by the Wallises of the world.

    Too many men (and compliant women, alas) remain unwilling to regard women as "moral agents" (in pastordan's words), or, as I phrase it, "incubators."

  • Serbian rapists agree ... (14+ / 0-)

    Yes, I agree there is never a "need" for abortion except in the case where the health of the mother is threatened.

    ... the "need" is all in their heads, poor dears.
    .

  • Dan, you rock... (15+ / 0-)

    ...are you active in your state's Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice affiliate?  You make one heck of a spokesperson for our values.

    And, if anyone is interested in the RCRC (no matter your religious tradition), please find them on the web under www.rcrc.org.

  • Dan (12+ / 0-)

    Thank you for your insightful essay. Not only did you remind me of this important issue, you pointed out the subtext in the dialog that I might have missed.

    Street Prophets is my daily reminder of why I'm a progressive.

    JON

    "Upward, not Northward" - Flatland, by EA Abbott

    by linkage on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 07:48:56 AM PDT

  • Yes indeed (14+ / 0-)

    When it boils down to it, the purpose of this dubious proposal is to make the Democratic party safe for people like Wallis and other pro-lifers who want to act upon women in the guise of "reaching out to them."

    and, even if the Democratic Party doesn't fall for it at a policy level, there's always the cash contributions and public adulation to think about.

  • I just don't get it. (9+ / 0-)

    I don't see how for the majority of people, it seems, that abortion is a moral issue. It just doesn't make sense to me.

    I don't think Wallis is coming from the life begins at conception angle. It doesn't seem that way. If it does, then an abortion is murder, and it's time to start putting the groundwork together the criminalize abortion. How much prison do you recommend for the mother?

    But as we all know...it doesn't work that way. Mainly because it won't sell.

    No, it's not a moral issue in that way. I have a feeling I know what the real angle is however.

    I'm a happily married man, who for a variety of reasons is not planning on having children. My..well..it's not even so much a choice. It is what it is...long story..is thought of in itself to be a selfish, heartless, immoral decision by quite a few people.

    This is where I suspect the "anti-abortion" emotion comes in to play. Most people just can't even understand the choice to not have children. And I think that's what resonates with people, and that's what is behind all of this.

    Is it ever gonna be enough?

    by Karmakin on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:00:09 AM PDT

  • Thank You! (15+ / 0-)

    Of course, abortion is a moral decision -- but we need to affirm that it is a moral decision for an individual woman to make.  

    I think what's most curious to me is that the group of evangelicals who pronouced that they had somehow improved the Party's platform by themselves, seem oblivious that its goals are what the pro-choice community has always stood for -- CHOICE.  

    I keep thinking of the protestor at a conference I was keynoting in Texas when I was 8 months pregnant who said to me, "I never knew women like you actually had babies."  

    "Pro-child.  Pro-family. Pro-choice" has been a bumper sticker for as long as I can remember.  As I said on my blog last week, it's great if these evangelicals are on board with what we've been calling for all along.  

    Rev. Debra Haffner
    http://debrahaffner.blogspot.com
    wwww.religiousistitute.org

  • I just love it when men claim to know how women (11+ / 0-)

    "feel".  The problem with the abortion debate is that the some of the loudest voices are men who will never know what it feels like to be pregnant, let alone have to make very difficult choices regarding their own health and the life and future well being of the baby that they are carrying. You may want to take a look at this site to see what women are saying and doing about abortion that bypasses the deadlock in Washington: Feminists for Life

    "As a community the Church must practice love." -Pope Benedict XVI

    by kathyoleary on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:31:19 AM PDT

  • I did not see Wallis saying (8+ / 0-)

    What she needs is for someone - perhaps a mid-fifties political player and father figure in Washington D.C. - to tell her how she should "feel."

    What he said was:

    But until we can reach out to women who "feel" the need for abortion and support them in alternative choices

    and he gave concrete examples of that support (via a quote from Doug Kimiec):

    "What this does is commit the Democratic Party to supply real support for the child and for the woman facing this question in terms of pre- and post-natal healthcare, in terms of income support, the kind of support like paternity leave, family leave and an improvement in the accessibility in adoption. These are tangible things and very much related to Catholic social teachings."

    The problem with the continued "woman are a moral agent" argument is that:

    1. Of course women are moral agents
    1. Indeed, all people are moral agents responsible for their decisions.
    1. Human moral agents often make immoral decisions.
    1. Human society often has the requirement to encourage moral decisions by moral agents and restrain the immoral decisions moral agents often make.

    Now, there are all sorts of immoral decisions made by moral agents you will criticize all day long. Why, on a general level leaving abortion aside for a second, is it patriarchal to question the immoral decisions of a moral agent just because the agent is a woman?

    To find out about me: http://braincrampsforgod.blogspot.com/2009/09/about-me.html

    by JCHFleetguy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 09:11:24 AM PDT

    • But that's not Wallis is doing. (14+ / 0-)

      He's assuming that women don't have the capacity to make the "right" decision for themselves. That's the subtext to his message. Like I said, he himself may not even know it's there.

      • Perception is everything (6+ / 0-)

        even if not right - and it is the speaker's requirement to make themselves understood and not the hearer's requirement to understand them.

        That said - your perception colors the sub-text. As does mine. Trying to place himself on the fence between the two halves (always an uncomfortable position, especially on a picket fence) his sub-text is going to be read differently by those on either side. Like you and me.

        However, it goes beyond women being able to make the "right decision for themselves". The right decision for them may not be a decision that is right for society - moral agents often make decisions society will not accept. That is why there are laws, police, courts, jails, elections, etc.

        In a sense I agree with your answer to Santiago - the folks at my church who believe abortion is morally abhorant are not going to vote for Obama; and those against any restriction of a women's right to have an abortion are not going to vote for McCain. Those are done deals.

        However, for folks like me - who believe abortion is prima facie wrong, but not always wrong; and who do not believe it will ever be outlawed but want it ended (which I believe is the vast middle on this issue) - then the McCain vs Obama decision may, or may not, turn on this issue. And the McCain vs Obama decision is one I haven't made, and abortion will be some part of that decision.

        That said - Santiago is right as well. Wallis gets my attention and says things I want to hear Democrats saying if I am going to vote for them. Reminding me that Obama is just about as bad on abortion as you can get (or good from your perspective) ain't going to help me look beyond that issue in November.

        To find out about me: http://braincrampsforgod.blogspot.com/2009/09/about-me.html

        by JCHFleetguy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 10:36:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      • No, that's not what he is saying at all. (6+ / 0-)

        Not intending to defend Wallis, and putting Wallis in your moral agent framework, all he is saying is that moral agency is limited by bounded rationality -- you can only choose from the options available to you and with the value-laden information about those options with which you are provided.  He thinks that more options and more favorable outlooks for choosing birth instead of abortion will lead to fewer abortions.

        What, exactly, do you find so repugnant about that from either a policy or a moral standpoint?

      • That's a stretch (4+ / 0-)

        He's got an opinion (abortion is bad) and so anyone who chooses an abortion has made the "wrong" decision in his mind.  But that's how opinions work.  I personally think Wallis has made the wrong decision to accept that human life begins at conception, but that doesn't mean that he lacks the capacity to make the right decision, or that I look down on him as being inferior.

        What would be patronizing would be to insist that women not be allowed to make the decision, but he's not taking that tack at all: he's suggesting a campaign of persuasion.  His opinion, shown above, may be anti-abortion, but it is very much pro-choice.

      • Then there's Obama's way of putting it ... (10+ / 0-)

        that abortion is "a woman's choice,  IN CONSULTATION WITH her Pastor, her family (ie: husband) and her doctor."

        He, too may not even know the same subtext is there.

        It's not the old style "woman's choice" standard that I grew up with ... it sort of kicks the whole "Privacy" concept to the curb ...  but the fact is, the Democratic Platform (which almost no one reads anyway)has,if anything, a stronger Choice plank than we've seen in decades.

        And if we can also get some young and healthy liberal-ish Supreme Court Justices, Obama will have done as much as anyone can reasonably hope for.

    • The trouble is... (9+ / 0-)

      ...that it is the issue of ABORTION and its morality/immorality where Wallis is displaying his patriarchy!  

      And he's not questioning the "immoral decisions of a moral agent," he's questioning the morality of a whole set of decisions by a very diverse group of moral agents - who are women.  If he was questioning Susan X's decision to have an abortion and her reasons thereof, I wouldn't necessarily conclude that he's being patriarchal (it would depend on the way he questioned her reasoning).  But he's questioning the very "need" for abortion, and pitting that against "feeling the need" for an abortion by all women who are considering that step.  That's what makes it patriarchal.

  • Lifetime supply of cookies for PD! (10+ / 0-)

    Dan, you rock.  

    Melissa McEwan, who blogs as Shakespeare's Sister, had a good response about "feeling the need" for abortion when she wrote about the APA task force study on mental health and abortion:

    there's nothing to suggest that such [negative] feelings are directly attributable to the abortion itself as opposed to other circumstances, like, say the 73% of abortion seekers who terminate because they can't afford a baby, for reasons ranging from unemployment to lack of healthcare to supporting the maximum number of dependents possible already. [...]

    Most discussions of abortion axiomatically regard pregnancy as something every woman wants and to which every woman will have a special connection, which is why so much legislation is designed with the presumption that women seeking abortions have had to deny the reality of being pregnant – that if only she sees it's a baby on an ultrasound ... if only she hears the fetal heartbeat ... if only she just thinks about what she's doing for 24 more hours ...

    To the women who seek abortions, the reality of being pregnant is not something they get an abortion in spite of. It is precisely what's driving them to seek the abortion in the first place.

  • No, pastordan, you're flat out wrong on this (5+ / 0-)

    and you need to take a back seat here, at least until November.  You're entering concern troll-dom right before the final sprint to the election by irritating the most fragile fault line of the currently winning progressive coalition.

    Whatever your or Jim Wallis' personal positions are on abortion, the fact remains, and will always remain, that abortion policy is a highly controversial moral gray area on which Americans, including women and progressives, will always disagree. As Pew research polls have always shown, only a very small minority of people, including women, believe that abortion is a morally correct choice for any woman-- just 12% in this 2006 Pew survey.  

    This means that progressives such as ourselves can be divided into three broad camps:

    1. Those who believe that abortion can be a morally valid choice with which the community must never interfere (a minority of left to center-left voters fall into this category);
    1. Those who disagree that abortion is a morally acceptable choice, either for themselves or others, but who think that banning abortion access is either too problematic to implement, or not useful for reducing abortions (Jim Wallis falls into this category, along with the plurality of Americans and progressives); and
    1. Those (a small and arguably sacrificial minority of progressives), who believe abortion should be highly restricted or outlawed, just like more conservatives tend to believe.

    Right now, we have a happy union on the left of categories 1 and 2 around the candidacy of Barrack Obama, and an almost complete acceptance on the part of category 3 to sublimate their abortion opposition in this election.  That's called coalition building, and the name of the game in American politics is that whoever has the biggest, most energized coalition on election day wins the key institutional positions for making political changes.

    The last thing any of us should be doing from now until election day is fighting among ourselves about the very issue from which the term "wedge issue" was created.  Why don't you just accept the fact that people like Wallis, who we need to win the election, are willing to fight alongside you to get a progressive victory in November?  To do otherwise just feeds the right-wing meme that Obama is a pro-abortion extremist.

    • Bullshit. (13+ / 0-)

      Democrats don't need Wallis to win. In fact, my guess is that he and his friends are not going to bring very many votes to the party at all this year.

      As you say, abortion is a highly controversial and divisive issue. The consequence of that is that people vote according to their stands on the issue. If they're strongly pro-life, they vote Republican. If they're strongly pro-choice, they vote Democratic. Very very few people with ethical convictions one way or another "put aside" their feelings to vote across party lines.

      I honestly don't understand why that's not obvious at this point.

      As to your point about creating a fault line in the party, so be it. My position is no further to the left than Obama's, and I'm not willing to put a bunch of pro-lifers in the catbird seat within the party if I can help it.

      This is a battle that needs to be fought, and if you don't like it, tough, because you'll be hearing about it again and again between now and November.

      • That's just great, (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Asbury Park, linkage, Jeff Fairchild

        You're saying that making sure that the progressive coalition adopts a view on abortion that only 12% of Americans agree with is more important than winning the race. You're portraying the picture perfect, wingnut meme of Obama supporters to a t: that being ideologically pure on the morality (not even the policy outcomes) of abortion are more important to you than getting out of Iraq and avoiding future wars like Iraq.  That it's even more important than being able to make policies that are consistent with providing legal access to abortion. Well, if that's the case, then you're the one who has to be put in his place here, not Wallis.

        We might not need Wallis and his small group of Sojourners followers, but on the issue of abortion, like it or not, the vast plurality of voters happen to agree with him on this issue.  People think abortion is wrong, but they think it should still be legal and available. Sorry to disappoint you, but facts are facts.  For you to ignore that political landscape makes you a liability in every sense of the term "concern troll."  The election should never be about abortion, because you don't need it to be about abortion to get policy victories that come from a progressive victory in November if we leave it to less salacious issues such as the economy, war, and the need for a progressive change that Obama represents.  

        So, I respectfully request that you STFU on this issue until November.

        • Bullshit again. (8+ / 0-)

          I do not believe that abortion is an unqualified moral good. It's not. But neither is it an unqualified moral bad. Which means that it's a matter of ethics - of applying one's values to a particular situation. And the relevant question here is, what gives Jim Wallis the right to impose his ethics on somebody else?

          As JCH points out above, we do that all the time in governing. But in a democracy, it's not acceptable to legislate from a particular set of values without a compelling government interest. In other words, what reason does the government have to prefer Jim Wallis' ethics to mine? To Wolfie's? To any random person? He's never able to articulate that, only talking in these sweet generalities about helping these poor benighted women make better choices. That's practically the definition of patronizing moralism.

          As for winning or losing the election - and thereby the end of the war - on the question of abortion, this is again pure bullshit. Obama is solidly ahead with conservative Evangelicals breaking for McCain at almost exactly the same rate they voted for Bush.

          There is no need to concede on this point, and I'll be damned if I will simply because Wallis has buffaloed people into thinking there is. More to the point, it's ridiculous to think that somebody like me could wreck the progressive coalition single-handedly. If I could, it'd be so disastrously weak that it would deserve the mercy killing.

          Shorter Schultz: take your accusations of concern trolling and stuff them. Ditto your suggestion to STFU. Wallis has his values, I have mine. I'm not backing down on mine, and I don't expect him to, either.

          • Unbelievable crap. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Thirst, Jeff Fairchild

            You go on trying to do your best to lose this election, and I'll keep trying to win it despite you.

            No one said you that you believed it's an unqualified moral good.  What you have argued is that it can be a morally acceptable decision for someone to make.  That's exactly the question asked in the Pew surveys of the issue and which get only fringe level responses from Liberals, women, and Democrats, let alone the independents and the population at large. 12%? That's flakedom, even if you're right. Even 20% among liberal. It's where you want to paint your opponent, not where you want to be taking a stand.

            An Obama victory assures pro-choice policies, and it doesn't matter one bit if people like Wallis are someone kicked out of the tent or not. This means that your crusade to not concede any point at all to reluctant members of the coalition is purely self-gratifying.  The policy outcome is the same whether Wallis types reluctant or enthusiastic supporters of abortion rights, so there is no gain for not conceding.  However, as can be seen in political history since 1980, there are potentially grave risks to losing an election if the candidate can be framed as belonging to the 12% fringe that gets labeled "pro-abortion."  Why take that risk for zero payoff?  It's absurd, and if you continue to follow that route you're just helping the McCain do his work for him.  Let Republicans carry their own water, Dan.

            • the 12% fringe (8+ / 0-)

              is a right-wing meme.

              Further, you can't make a good arguement when you start with a faulty premise; anything that originates with a right wing meme is, be design, faulty.

              So, stop worrying about their "frames" and how Obama gets "labeled".
              We're done with and won't cater to the right-wing-meme-factory.

              Say it with me, friend: "private. medical. decision."

              • It may be a meme (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                grada3784, Jeff Fairchild

                but it's also a fact.  Face it.  You can't get elected with most people believing you are "pro-abortion." Pro-choice yes, because most people are. Pro-life , yes, because only a slim minority believes that abortion is morally acceptable.  But pro-abortion, no way.  Pastordan is trying to get Democrats to defend the "abortion is morally acceptable" argument.  But that's exactly what Republicans are trying to maneuver Obama into doing too. It's Republicans who are trying to bring abortion into this election right now because they know it's a weakness among Democrats, so don't  help them carry their own water, for Christ's sake.

                • BS (5+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Aunt Em, grada3784, Thirst, AdamSelene, linkage

                  There is no such thing as "pro-abortion".

                  You continue to position your arguement using faulty assumptions.  

                  You strike me as someone who would like to change the Democratic party to suit your philosophy, when the Republican party already addresses your social needs.  And we aren't weak enough to let a bunch of fundies take over the party.

                  So, enough with  your "help" already.

                  • Disagree (3+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    grada3784, linkage, Jeff Fairchild

                    There are plenty of people willing to stand up and declare that they are "pro-abortion.  Some of the people (not all) who've posted here are in that camp.

                    Of course I'd like to change the Democratic party to be closer to my philosophy, and so would you, which is why the Democratic plank on abortion changed this year to be more pro-choice than ever.  Democratic party positions are contested spaces, and I want an anti-war, pro-immigrant party and I'm willing to contest that space with anyone, anywhere. I hope you are too.

                    Enough with you're name calling and ignorant presumptions of where people are coming from.  You did it once before in a discussion with me, I suggest you find out who people really are and what their background is by asking them before you jump to hostile, prejudicial conclusions.

                    • I've not called you any names (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      grada3784, linkage

                      I don't have a hostile, preconceived notion of who you are.  By my disagreement, you do not become a victim of hostility or name calling.  Many women are uncomfortable with assertiveness.  I am not.

                      As it relates to prior threads, I'm not willing to concede the medical care of myself or any of my daughters regarding birth control or medical cures, to strangers, especially those with fundamentalist religious views. And, luckily, the Democratic party isn't interested either.

                      • Okay, whatever you say (2+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        grada3784, linkage

                        You strike me as someone who would like to change the Democratic party to suit your philosophy, when the Republican party already addresses your social needs.  And we aren't weak enough to let a bunch of fundies take over the party.

                        Lumping me in with Republicans and fundies?  Maybe that's not an insult in your book, but it is in mine.

                • BTW (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  grada3784, linkage

                  the same study reported on the stem cell debate just below it.  I don't see you pointing to that during any discussion on stem cell research.  

                  • I never argued that (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    grada3784, linkage

                    stem cells was a political liability to anyone. I'm not even arguing against being pro-choice here.  I am simply telling pastordan to stop being a jerk to a pro-life person who wis willing to back pro-choice policies, because actions like pastordan's are exactly what Republicans are trying to do when the smear Obama with they "pro-abortion" label, as they've been doing all week.

            • this is BS too: (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              grada3784, linkage, Jeff Fairchild

              You go on trying to do your best to lose this election, and I'll keep trying to win it despite you.

              Not that I don't enjoy lively discourse, but who made you the authority on how to win the election?

              Regardless of the validity of arguments on both sides, that comment was out of line.

            • Total bullshit (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Rusty Pipes, grada3784

              See my response to your earlier post on this.  If we control for Republicans that aren't going to vote for Obama anyway, then the MAJORITY favor legalized abortion and see it as morally acceptable in some circumstances.

              So why talk bullshit on this issue?  You're a smart guy, you can read the data - but you choose to present the data in a totally false manner.  What's the morality of that, I wonder.

      • False dichotomy (7+ / 0-)

        We all talk as if pro-choice and anti-abortion are opposites, but they are not: it is a false dichotomy.  Choice and abortion support are not synonyms, they are entirely separate dimensions.  One can be

        1. Anti-choice and anti-abortion. (The Republican platform)
        1. Pro-choice and anti-abortion. (like Jim Wallis's position above, and the Clintons' "safe, legal, and rare")
        1. Pro-choice and pro-abortion. (like you apparently: abortion is preferred in a large number of cases)
        1. Anti-choice and pro-abortion. (rare in this country, but the Chinese government might take this position given their 1-child policy)

        and of course everything is gray.  I'd be willing to bet that most Americans are uneasy about abortion, do not like the thought of abortion as just another birth control method, but recognize that the choice of when abortion is the right option is too personal and idiosyncratic a decision to manage with some blanket law, or to be decided by the courts.  Those Americans are pro-choice.  If you're going to insist that "pro-choice" actually means "pro-abortion", then you are going to lose a lot of your support.

        And people vote against their ethical convictions all the time: it's called weighing the options and accepting imperfection.  

    • what I don't hear from you, Santiago (9+ / 0-)

      ...is the progressive camp who believes that abortion can be a moral choice, that it is up to the individual, her family and her God to make that decision, and that the role of the government is both to ensure access to abortion care AND also to other options (prenatal care, adoption plans, etc.), if she so chooses.  That's certainly not #1 or #2, AND I think it fairly represents the Democratic platform.  (And Thank God we're finally getting some comprehensive attention on the issue of unintended/unwanted/impossible pregnancies!)

      It certainly is NOT where Wallis stands, however.  And I would argue that he straddles the lines between your #2 and #3.  He'd love to see it made illegal, though I suspect he'd phrase it as loving to see abortion made "unnecessary."  

      And I echo the WTH?!?! of those who wonder why Wallis gets to determine when a woman "needs" an abortion and when she just "feels" she needs an abortion.  What determines that "need," indeed.

      • What you've just said, (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Aunt Em, linkage, Lihtox

        ...is the progressive camp who believes that abortion can be a moral choice, that it is up to the individual, her family and her God to make that decision, and that the role of the government is both to ensure access to abortion care AND also to other options (prenatal care, adoption plans, etc.), if she so chooses.

        is merely an additional restriction on category 1, as I've put it above -- that abortion can be a morally acceptable choice.

        You've somehow added a restriction to it that I don't think you really intend -- that a woman's family or pastor should be able to prevent her from having an abortion.  

        Wallis stands in #2 lately, along with the majority of pro-choice voters: abortion is not morally acceptable, but it's worse to try to ban or restrict it.

        • uhh, I didn't say her PASTOR had any say... (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Rusty Pipes, Sharoney, Thirst, linkage

          ...I said "her GOD."  Please note that for the vast majority of religious folk, the two are NOT concurrent.  And including God in her decision-making process is not a restriction - that's exercising her moral agency, which is what PD is trying to say women should have the right to do.

          Involving her family in the discernment process is also not restricting her, it is allowing her community of support to help her discern the moral choice for her.  Surely you don't think women make these choices in vacuums, do you?  (Certainly, if her family tried to prevent her from making this choice, yes, that would qualify as a restriction - but I'm not suggesting that the legal framework would have to include "God and family" in the woman's decision.  Sorry if that was confusing.)

          I guess I'm not hearing much about Wallis noting the impracticality of trying to outlaw abortion.  But his patriarchy and lack of trust in women on this issue, sadly, is clear and consistent.

          • Community of support (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            linkage, Jeff Fairchild

            You tell that to her abusive husband or perverted uncle.  But I think you get what I meant.  However, if you are going to allow a narrow community based, rather arbitrarily, on family ties to influence her decision, then why stop there?  Why shouldn't others in her community of support, for example her social worker, also be able to weigh in with information and persuasion when someone's judgement may be clouded by desperate circumstances.  Putting it that way, I think you can see why what you really are saying is no different than that individual women should have complete, unrestricted authority over their own reproductive decision. Family, God, community have nothing to do with it.  That's a pretty extreme view, too, though, once take away the words you don't really intend to include.

            But on your, and pastordan's, larger issue that Wallis doesn't trust women to be moral agents in reproductive decisions, I just don't see the evidence for that.  I don't see the patriarchy unless you assume, a priori, that the only reason one would try to persuade a woman to choose birth instead of abortion is that he believes she must not know what she's doing.  Even then, it would only be patriarchy if you could show that men are given different standards, which I don't see in anything Wallis has ever said. Does Wallis think that a guy who got a girl pregnant is less desperate and will make a better decision about her pregnancy than she will? No, not to my knowledge. Instead he thinks that people in desperate situations will be able to make more honest decisions if some of the desperation can be relieved.

            I read Wallis as simply saying that he thinks abortion is wrong -- something that half the country, including a plurality of progressives, believe -- and that if birth was a better option more women would choose it, because most of them think its wrong too.  He is not saying that every woman would choose it, which is what pastordan implies by his deterministic arguments of extreme cases - just that more would presumably want to would be able to do so.  I don't find anything in that which contradicts progressive, even feminist, values.

            • who would call ... (5+ / 0-)

              ...an abusive spouse or relative a part of one's community of support?  

              Yep, I think the decision should belong to the woman and anyone else she chooses to bring into the conversation.  I personally believe that a supportive family and God are important folk to include in such a decision (they're certainly people I'd bring into that conversation if I were in that situation), which is why I included them in my OP.  I do not believe, however, that Jim Wallis should  be deciding what to do about someone else's pregnancy.  I stand by that.  

              If you don't see the patriarchy in Wallis stating that many women who have abortions don't "need" them, they just "'feel' they need them," then I don't know what else to say.  And he seems to think he knows best about others' pregnancies, which to my mind is pretty patriarchal.  And to my knowledge he has not even touched upon the role of the male in these pregnancies, but it seems to me that he's saying that if women only had more knowledge and more choices, they'd make "better" ones than abortion.  How the hell does he know what a "better" choice is in a situation where the husband is physically abusive to her and their other kids, or to the pervert uncle you mentioned above?  

              Yes, he's essentially saying that women don't really know what they're doing.  Do you think there is a female over the age of 14 in this country that is not aware of the other options besides abortion?  Thanks, we all know that parenting and adoption are other options.  Jim Wallis seems to think that if only more women knew about this stuff, they would choose it.  

              Insofar as he agrees that access to comprehensive sex ed and real family planning (including contraception for those who want it) will help reduce the number of abortions in this country, I'm all on board.  But it's not rocket science - and he's not the first to be saying it.  Planned Parenthood has been saying it for decades.  But God forbid we bring THEM into the conversation!

              • No, you're being deliberately cynical (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                linkage

                Wallis is just saying some that women choose abortion even though they wish they didn't have to.  So, address the issues that make them thing they have to, and give them the freedom to choose birth if that's what they want.  This is just not the controversy that pastordan is making it into.

                • Huh? (6+ / 0-)

                  Wallis is just saying some that women choose abortion even though they wish they didn't have to.

                  If that's what he was saying, wouldn't he have, y'know, actually said that?

                  Yes, I agree there is never a "need" for abortion except in the case where the health of the mother is threatened. But until we can reach out to women who "feel" the need for abortion and support them in alternative choices,

                  He said "never". He didn't say "some".

                  I think you're reading the actual common ground that exists into his statement. I don't think it's really there in what he said.

                  Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

                  by StarWoman on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:27:59 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  • No, he simply didn't expect (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    grada3784, Jeff Fairchild

                    that anyone would presume he thinks women are unable to make moral decisions.  That's a ridiculous assumption to make of any educated person, so he shouldn't have to list disclaimers every time he makes an argument.  

                    Stop reading things into his argument that just aren't there.  Of course he doesn't believe there's a need.  He's pro-life after all.  That doesn't mean he thinks he can impose his view on others.  He just believes that relieving some of the desperation that a women might feel around the situation of being pregnant might lead to fewer abortion elections. Maybe it won't. I don't know.  But it's really wrong to beat him up or accuse him of being condescending when it's just not there in his comments.

                    • Ditto. (3+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Aunt Em, grada3784, Thirst

                      Stop reading things into his argument that just aren't there.

                      That's what I'd say to you, too.

                      You might try looking at it from this side of the gender/power divide, before you assert that I and other women are seeing things that aren't there.

                      I disagree that "pro-life" necessarily implies "there's never a need". Pro-life implies "abortion is always wrong". But there are plenty of other things that are "always wrong" that few if any assert there is "never a need" for. Like war, for instance. There is never a need for war, but some men "feel" a need for war.

                      There is plenty of other language the man could have used to say what you assert he intended to say.  The language he actually used is patronizing patriarchal crap, and I'm more likely to take him at his word than to read a softer interpretation into what he actually said.

                      Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

                      by StarWoman on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 10:59:48 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      • Here's why your wrong (IMHO) (2+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        grada3784, Jeff Fairchild

                        Start with the patronizing language "crap."  Use the quote cited by pastordan when he invoked the term patriarchy:

                        Support for women caught up in difficult situations and tragic choices is a better path than coercion for really reducing the abortion rate. Yes, I agree there is never a "need" for abortion except in the case where the health of the mother is threatened. But until we can reach out to women who "feel" the need for abortion and support them in alternative choices, we will never change the shameful abortion rate that both sides seem content to live with while they just attack each other. It is time to move from symbols to solutions.

                        Pastordan takes that quote to imply patriarchal condescension of women. And, it's true, if you start from the assumption that because Wallis is male and in some kind of leadership position, he must, a priori, have dismissive views of women, then it is reasonable to conclude that this quote implies that women can't figure out the "right" decisions without some help from Wallis reaching out to them.  

                        However, that conclusion rests entirely on that unsupported assumption.  I'd be willing to accept that assumption, and hence the conclusion, if provide with compelling contextual evidence that Wallis is, in fact, dismissive of women.  But neither pastordan or anyone else has yet presented that evidence, to my knowledge.  I suspect because it's not there, but I don't follow Wallis closely enough to know for sure, so I'm open to it.

                        I suspect that it's not there, because it's absurd to think that liberally educated people like Wallis and ourselves actually do hold dismissive views of women (at least outside of the possible social construction of male dominance that feminists theorize).  You need to prove dismissiveness of women, not just assume it because he's male and pro-life.

                        If you don't assume a priori dissmissiveness of women on Wallis' part, there is no other way to interpret his quote above other than how I have interpreted it: that economic and social pressures bias at least some women toward choosing abortion as the only rational options open to them. Although he does not go into that, it is completely consistent with his quote and use of the word "never" to conclude that he still wouldn't agree with women who chose abortion even if desperation were alleviated, but he isn't concerned about them either.  He's happy if he can just reduce abortions among women who feel compelled to have them for reasons that society can correct.  

                        There is no reason to use other language if you're not worried that someone is assuming that you're a misogynist. I argue that no one should assume that of anyone in this day and age, particularly among educated liberals.  When it does happen (such as Lawrence Summers, for example) then just point it out.  But that's not what pastordan did here.  Instead he presumed that Wallis is anti-woman and made that unsupported presumption into an argument against people who don't buy into the idea that abortion is ever morally acceptable.

                        I know you're super-smart Starwoman, but I don't think you're going to be convincing on this one.  Face it, pastordan is being a gratuitous asshole against fellow Democrats here for no possible gain of any kind for even pro-choice progressives, and that's exactly what Republicans' last, best hope is in this election.

                        • Unconvincing. (3+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          grada3784, Thirst, santiago

                          "In this day and age", men who make public statements about whether or not women "need" abortions or only "feel" they need abortions should bloody well expect that they might be considered misogynist and condescending. Or do you not remember that nauseating picture of a dozen white men gathered smiling around the president while he signed a law that made a medical procedure illegal for women to obtain?

                          This is a no brainer. Just like white people who make public statements about whether or not black people "need" something or only "feel" they need it should bloody well expect that they might be considered racist and condescending. People in a position of relative power do need to be explicitly careful about how they use language when addressing the needs and perceptions of people without power. If this wasn't sexism, it was a disturbing degree of cluelessness.

                          Also, please note that I don't believe language that expresses condescending patriarchal crap necessarily implies that the speaker is a conscious or malicious misogynist. There is sexism built into the structures of our society, and it's very possible to be unconciously caught up in it without consciously realizing it. It's happened to me. There may be no "contextual evidence" that someone is "dismissive of women" in this case; in fact there may be ample evidence to the contrary.

                          I stand by my comment. There are plenty of ways he could have phrased the point that you believe he intended to make; you yourself have spilled plenty of electronic ink using unobjectionable language to make those points. Wallis, however, did not.

                          Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.

                          by StarWoman on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 01:06:42 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    • The problem is he isn't "just" saying that (3+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      grada3784, Thirst, santiago

                      Wallis is just saying some that women choose abortion even though they wish they didn't have to.  

                      He just believes that relieving some of the desperation that a women might feel around the situation of being pregnant might lead to fewer abortion elections.

                      If that were the only thing he were saying, we wouldn't be having quite the same controversy here.  We have common ground with Wallis in agreeing that there are women who choose abortion because they lack resources -- if those resources were available, the women would find carrying a pregnancy to term a more viable option.  Given more real choices, more of those women could choose not to have abortions.

                      The difference pro-choice Democrats have with Wallace is that he says that

                      there is never a "need" for abortion except in the case where the health of the mother is threatened. But until we can reach out to women who "feel" the need for abortion

                      Only some of the women who have abortions do so primarily because of lack of resources.  Other women who choose to abort do so for a variety of other reasons, some of which PD has mentioned.  All of these women have a right to choose about their own medical decisions without speculation from uninvolved parties about what they "need" or "feel."

                      My reservation about PD's diary is that Wallis' article is actually better on this subject and the comment that PD highlighted was a response from Wallis to a fellow pro-lifer.

                      When I fall on my face with my knees to the rising sun, oh Lord, have mercy on me.

                      by Rusty Pipes on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 12:02:47 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      • That's a difference without (2+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        grada3784, Jeff Fairchild

                        a different policy conclusion, so let it rest, for GOd' sake.  The art of building a political coalition that can win an election rests on getting people of conflicting viewpoints to agree on the same policy prescriptions and candidates of institutional positions.  It doesn't require that everyone agree on the set of values.  

                        Wallis has come a long way to get to the same policy perspective on licensed abortion access -- way further than the pro-choice side, which gave up nothing.  So it complete assholery (to employ pastordan's penchant for colorful language) for pastordan to start beating up on him, and by extension, the plurality of Americans who agree with Wallis just because he can't support the statement that abortion is morally acceptable.  It's the classic recipe that Democrats employ to lose election after election.

            • Just because it's wrong doesn't mean anything. (9+ / 0-)

              if birth was a better option more women would choose it, because most of them think its wrong too

              I have had abortions, plural. Sometimes you reach a point where you have two, perhaps three alternatives, and it is NOT a choice between two bad ones and one good ones. Instead, you get to decide which is the least bad at this particular point. At different points, keeping it, giving it up, or having an abortion were each the least wrong thing to do there.

              The real thing that affects abortions is education and economic opportunity for both men and women. Funny, I don't hear a lot of conservatives talking about reducing abortion that way.

              Mother dark and Mother bright/ All that lives, You gave life/ All life into You will go/ Endless circle we all know.

              by Alexandra Lynch on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 03:07:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              • Agreed, but the larger point still holds (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Jeff Fairchild

                As long as there are some women who would rather give birth but feel they can't because of their desperate circumstances, it means that those circumstances are restricting the moral agency of women.  Wallis is just saying that alleviation of desperation should provide at least some level of increased freedom for those women.  What's wrong with that?

                • OMG (7+ / 0-)

                  Alexandra made the larger point!  Education and economic opportunity, as well as access to comprehensive family planning, ARE the ways to provide increased freedom for women.

                • Perhaps. (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Sharoney, Thirst, StarWoman

                  But about half the women of my close acquaintance have had an abortion. And none of those had them despite wanting the baby.

                  You see, for many women, it's not "a baby". Not at ten weeks. It's potential. We look down the road of possibilities, and decide. Then we decide if we "want" it, and fall in love with it, and consider names, and all that.

                  Is that cold-blooded? Perhaps. I've never been overly endowed with maternal instinct. But women have to put themselves and their born children first. And if the contraception fails, you do what you have to.

                  Mother dark and Mother bright/ All that lives, You gave life/ All life into You will go/ Endless circle we all know.

                  by Alexandra Lynch on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:46:18 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  • No reason to doubt you (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Jeff Fairchild

                    If you are right, and it's not just the kind of friends you have, the number of women who choose abortion but wish they could have chosen otherwise might be very low or even zero.  

                    But if you're not right, and it is just the crowd you hang with, then the number might be higher, and in any case why would anyone oppose the idea of reducing desperation for women who have an important reproductive decision to make?  That's all that Wallis is saying here.  He believes, and he might not be right, that more women will choose birth if economic and other pressures are lessened.  He might hate abortion himself , but as long as his policy proposals are consistent with abortion rights, why pick a needless fight with him?  

                • Because that isn't what he is saying (or, rather, (6+ / 0-)

                  "Wallis is just saying that alleviation of desperation should provide at least some level of increased freedom for those women.  What's wrong with that?"

                  it's a sanitized and wistful version  and, besides, the stench of his paternalism and condescension (which you are choosing to ignore) is an integral part of his message. Do you not see that or do you feel he's entitled to it because he's so moral  and upright and all?  

                  • You're assuming that condescension (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Jeff Fairchild

                    It's not evident in anything he says, unless you assume, a priori, that he is being condescending.  

                    I don't know enough about him to think he is moral or upright, and I certainly do know plenty of moral and upright people who are condescending.  But, other than pastordan, I've never heard anyone say that about Wallis, and his comments don't appear condescending unless you assume that he thinks that women can't make decisions, which is nothing he says.  What he really is saying is that people in desperate circumstances might have trouble making decisions they might otherwise want to, woman or man.  Is he right? Who knows? But it's far cry from condescension, and pastordan is just picking a needless fight with people Obama needs for the election by painting Wallis' comments that way.

      • Need is subjective (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Aunt Em, linkage, Jeff Fairchild

        Some people may say they "need a drink", but a prohibitionist would argue that no one ever needs a drink.  A serial killer "needs" to kill people, but we obviously don't agree with him.

        Need is subjective, and it is also not absolute: there are almost always other options.  Why would a woman need to have an abortion?  To avoid some particular set of consequences: death, poverty, health issues, broken relationships, overpopulation, a child who suffers from neglect or physical and mental defects, etc.  One must weigh those consequences versus the abortion to determine what is needed; obviously, then, it's all going to depend on how one rates those consequences.  For someone who thinks an embryo is no different than a tumor, the answer is obvious.  For someone who thinks an embryo is a human being, the answer is also obvious.  Most of us aren't sure, and so the decision is difficult.

        I think some people are looking too hard for condescension.

        • "Most of us aren't sure ..." (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Sharoney, Thirst, linkage, Absit Invidia

          Which is precisely the conclusion I came to - I'm not sure - and therefore, the decision DOES NOT BELONG TO ME. What if I'm wrong yet still enforce my conclusion onto the woman who must bear the consequences? Therefore the only moral position for me is that the woman alone must decide.

          Faith is less about having answers and more about engaging our own story & weaving it together with the stories of others, in community.

          by The Werewolf Prophet on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 05:44:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          • I agree (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            virgomusic, Thirst, Absit Invidia

            and thus I am pro-choice as well.  A speaker I heard in college put it well: the relationship between a pregnant mother and the fetus is unique among human relationships, because the mother cannot be replaced by anyone until the fetus is viable. She has complete, exclusive, and irrevocable responsibility for that fetus, and with that responsibility comes the right to turn it down if necessary.  Other people can try to persuade or counsel the woman, but no one dare try to take away that right by force.

    • Concern trolling (5+ / 0-)

      I agree with you somewhat, but calling on someone to censor himself on a fairly low-traffic website (no offense) so as not to jeopardize the party's chances is in fact the real concern-trolling.  Jim Wallis isn't even connected to the Obama campaign as far as I know.

      • Good point (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        linkage, Jeff Fairchild, Lihtox

        But pastordan has been getting some press as a right-wing punching bag lately, and he publicly supports Obama. The problem is that it's the right who are trying to make abortion an issue right now, much to the chagrin of Democrats and the Obama campaign.  There's a reason for that: the pro's, the politicians and the political staff who've earned their self-interested livings in the political business for years, all know the truth about the issue: it always hurts and never helps Democrats in general elections.  It's the quintessential wedge issue.

        Pastordan puts this site up to further the progressive cause, not just to be internal discussion group.  The opinions here are meant to be heard.  And he's making the Republican talking points for them with his recent postings on the morality of abortion.  He shouldn't be carrying their water for them right before an enormously critical election.

    • The GOP is run by (6+ / 0-)

      Neo-cons and fundy-extremists.  Why should we emulate that?

      First, Obama can win without evangelicals. Second, I'd rather have him lose than allow the Democrats to have the party taken over and lose grass roots control.  This country can't afford it.  
      BTW, this site has some pretty good references for polls.  I'm not sure where you heard you're poll 'facts', but I've never heard any number such as the one you reference.

      • We're not talking about evangelicals (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Jeff Fairchild

        We're talking about the majority of Americans.  The non-partisan, self-endowed Pew Center is simply the most reliable and respected survey institution available, particularly on political opinion regarding social issues.  They have tracked public opinion on abortion (and just about anything else) for decades. Pastordan himself cites them all the time.  I linked to it in my comment, but here it is again.  (Dig deeper on the cite and you can find even more interesting stuff for political position analysis.)  

        Asked if people agree with the statement that abortion is morally wrong, 52% agreed.

        Asked if abortion is morally acceptable -- pastordan's position -- only 12% agreed.

        Those figures track pretty well over the years in other surveys they've done too.  What it means is that most people think abortion should be legal even if it's wrong.  It also means that Pastordan should stop beating them up for believing its wrong if he truly wants to keep it legal. Take what you can get on this one.

        • I dug deeper (5+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Rusty Pipes, Sharoney, colleen, Thirst, linkage

          and found this breakdown on the survey.  If I am reading this right, the sample was 745 people -- and of the people who said it was "morally wrong", a whopping percentage were white, evangelical Christians.  The group who chose "morally wrong" also tend to have less schooling and are Republican.

          With all due respect, I think it is a stretch to say that this group represents the majority of Americans.

          • But the more telling part is that (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            linkage, Jeff Fairchild

            only 20% of Liberals and 16% of Democrats agree that having an abortion is morally acceptable. That's the statistic that political pros on both sides keep their eye on around this issue.  Abortion is never going to be electorally positive for Democrats.  We need to sublimate it to win. It's that simple. "Safe, legal, and rare" was political genius, not a policy position.

            • Yes, but... (7+ / 0-)

              of the liberals, 36% said it wasn't a moral issue and 11% says it depends.  Take the ones who say it is morally acceptable and the ones who say it is not a moral issue together and it is 56%.  Add in the ones who say it depends on the situation, and it is 67%.

              I think you underestimate the number of people who a) feel strongly pro-choice and who b) think it is nobody's business what a woman decides to do in this department.  See, that's the thing -- anti-abortion proponents tend to be very vocal.  People who want to protect women's rights to choose feel strongly but not as vocal because they feel it is a private matter.

              • That's the difference between (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Thirst, linkage, Jeff Fairchild

                what are known as diffuse interests versus concentrated interests.  It's why politicos look at two sets of numbers on polls: positives and negatives.  People the majority are moderately favorable toward the policy idea of safe and legal abortion, but abortion still has a huge ick factor which is evidenced by the fact that a majority of liberals, most of who are pro-choice, still can't get on board with the idea that abortion is a morally acceptable action.

                I'm not the only one who reads the surveys that way, by the way.  The entire political establishment does -- people who count votes because their livihood depends upon it.  In fact, there are few major policy issues that post as high on negative ratings than abortion.  People are pro-choice in the same way they don't think adultery needs to be prohibited anymore (no fault divorces). It doesn't mean that people like it and want it associated with their candidate. Killing fetuses is just plain yucky stuff, even if there are perfectly good reasons for being pro-choice. But you have to keep yucky images and feelings away from a candidate, period.

                Now, I agree with you that people want to protect a woman's right to choose because it's a privacy issue.  Problem is, that's not the arguement that pastordan is making here.  He is saying that Wallis, who is a reluctant pro-choice supporter as far as policy is concerned, that it's just not enough -- he doesn't deserve to be an Obama supprter. Instead pastordan thinks Wallis must declare that abortion is morally acceptable, something that almost nobody in the country -- not women, liberals, or democrats -- even believe.

                It's just nuts. It's how Democrats so often snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

                • I don't think you are hearing me. (6+ / 0-)

                  I am saying that people who believe strongly in freedom to choose are not as likely to be vocal about their beliefs -- because it's nobody's business!  Women who have had abortions are not likely to talk about it or what brought them to make a hard decision in the way that they did.  Nor are their families.  Because it is nobody's business!  But will they vote for women to keep the right to make that choice -- you bet they will -- in the privacy of the voting booth.

                  And as for "ick" factor -- how about young women suffering from back alley abortions?  And sometimes dying?  In the absence of safe and legal procedures, that is what happened in the past -- and what will happen again if the right is taken away.

                  • I don't think you premise is correct (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Jeff Fairchild

                    that women who have had abortions are not likely to talk about it.  First, researchers have never identified that bias, to my knowledge.  But also, I've run for office before, and I was amazed at how many women whom I've never met before would tell me about their abortions at their doorsteps.  I doubt it was due to my disarming charm.  You've got this hypothesis that there is an unspoken groundswell of people who will vote for a candidate who believes abortion is a morally acceptable decision (which I think Obama does believe).  But there's no factual evidence of any sort to back it up.  All surveys have shown that most Americans are pro-choice, but most Americans are against abortion, with women and men showing the same results, statistically.  If we are in fact-land, this is what we have to go on.  

                    On the other hand, there are huge reasons to believe abortion can kill a candidacy -- such as the fact that Republicans have won on an unpopular and very restrictive anti-abortion platform since 1980.  The only time they lost was CLinton's "safe, legal, but rare" quip.  That's the winning ticket -- don't mess with it.

                    Again, no one, not Wallis or anyone else in this discussion, is advocating a re-criminalization of abortion.  What pastordan is arguing is that being pro-choice is not enough -- you also have to stand up and say that abortion is a morally acceptable choice.  That's a position that risks this election, and people like pastordan have to be talked down when they bring it so we progressives don't all get painted into the fringe along with him.

                    • You are wearing blinders (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Thirst

                      and calling your field of vision "fact-land".  With all due respect, there is more -- and you are not listening.  A sample of 700 or so people with cons all lumped into one category and the pros divied up into smaller slices isn't persuasive of anything.

                      What pastordan is arguing is that being pro-choice is not enough -- you also have to stand up and say that abortion is a morally acceptable choice.

                      Where does he say that?

                      I see him saying that Wallis' language is patronizing and that it dismisses the reality of women in hard situations with little quotation marks.  But you are making a leap, santiago, and then arguing against said leap.

                      • If you're unwilling to accept (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Jeff Fairchild

                        what most scholars, practitioners, journalists, and most everyone else agrees is the best, most unbiased, publicly available statistical evidence of public opinion on the issues regarding abortion, I guess we're out of ammunition for discussion, then.  750 is a very good statistical sample for the level of breakdowns they're doing.  You wouldn't get different results and would only marginally increase statistical confidence by increasing the sample size further. The results are confirmed because they are stable over time.  The chance of getting the same results with various surveys over time is extremely small. The only thing a bigger sample would do is allow you to break down the fringe responses further. Not necessary for the conclusions I'm arguing.

                        This is where pastordan says that being pro-choice is not enough -- that you also have to stand up and say that it's a morally acceptable choice:

                        It is painfully obvious that Wallis believes that without a Big Daddy government, women will choose wrongly, and the "shameful abortion rate" will continue. It never seems to occur to him that that rate does not reflect mere convenience or women taking control of their bodies.

                        and

                        I don't want to hear any more crap about how "we're all on the same team." Until Jim Wallis can start his discussion of abortion with the recognition that women are moral agents in their own right and don't need him to guide their decision-making, we're not on the same team at all.

                        There is just no way to interpret these comments in any way other than that pastordan believes that Wallis can't recognize the moral agency of woman unless he gives up his belief that there is never a need for an abortion.  That is the same thing as arguing that abortion is a morally acceptable action.

                        Pastordan is attacking Wallis because Wallis believes that abortion is always morally wrong, even if Wallis is on board with the idea of safe, legal abortion for everyone who wants it.  He's trying to enforce ideological purity over his own pet issue, an ultimately self-destructive endeavor with which I wholeheartedly disagree. He's been on this "don't concede on abortion" kick for at least a few weeks now, even though no one who is pro-choice has had to concede anything, and Wallis is not even proposing that they do.

                        Rather than view the context of Wallis's comment, something which we all criticize Fox news-types for ignoring when using a gotcha comment, he calls Wallis out as a sexist and then, with our minds then geared to look for possible evidence of sexism, blockquotes one comment out of a very large discussion on Wallis's blog.  

                        In other words he frames Wallis as anti-woman and then asks his readers to look at quote of his own choosing and interpret it within a sexism framework. That's inherently dishonest, and it's absolutely self-destructive when used against a fellow liberal member of our current progressive political coalition just a short time before the election we've all been working for.

                        • This is why (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          santiago

                          abortion is called a wedge issue.

                          The Republicans have used it (successfully) to divide people.  We cannot use it to unite them.  What Wallis has said isn't going to do it, certainly.

                          If you go reaching for "middle ground" on a wedge issue, you lose other people.  I think Lakoff is right.

                          • Thanks Rain (2+ / 0-)

                            Recommended by:
                            Rain, Rusty Pipes

                            Barack Obama should not move, or even appear to be moving, toward right-wing views on issues -- even with nuanced escape clauses.

                            George Lakoff, from the article Rain linked to

                            The reason I keep talking about George Lakoff is we need to pull together and move forward with a plan and get somthing done. George Lakoff gives us a clear plan of action.

                            Again Thanks,

                            JON

                            "Upward, not Northward" - Flatland, by EA Abbott

                            by linkage on Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 11:22:15 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          • Wrong application of wedge framework (0 / 0)

                            Obama does not ever have to be put in a position of either moving to the right, or losing votes, as long as dissension within Democratic ranks is low over any given issue.  If pressed, yes, he should do as Lakoff says and hold to his position, the majority position in this case.  He has consistently done that on this issue despite Republican attempts to paint him with pro-abortion/pro-infanticide labels.  

                            However, in order for that strategy to be effective, it is important for us activists to play our part too -- to stop fighting among ourselves over inconsequential issues (inconsequential because there is absolutely no policy difference between Wallis and pastordan), and to focus on things that unite us as Democrats and may instead divide our Republican opponents.  It is too close to election time for any internal fight about an issue as divisive as abortion is for Democrats, so pastordan needs to shut up about this for now.

                            It's Republicans who are trying to inject abortion into this election, not Wallis who just trying to convince other pro-life liberals that it really isn't so bad to vote pro-choice this time (not an easy sell). Let him do his job so we can win this election.

                • Also, people who say (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Thirst, linkage, Absit Invidia

                  that women should be able to choose their outcome do so out of a belief that we're talking about a medical decision; not a morality-mind-experiment.

                  Sometimes people chose vaccines, surgeries, chemotherapy, infertility treatments...So, why don't you see the "pro-lifers" outside the fertility clinic with their nasty posters handing out bumper stickers and screaming at patients? Because they've gotten comfortable with that type of medical treatment.  And they use it. And then, they call it a miracle.

                  The vast majority of the public believe it's a private choice and are sick of this wedge issue.
                  From the Pew Study you focus on:
                  Majorities of Republicans (62%), Democrats (70%) and political independents (66%) favor a compromise. So do majorities of liberals, moderates and conservatives. More than six-in-ten white evangelicals also support compromise, as do 62% of white, non-Hispanic Catholics.

                  Only one group expressed unwillingness to find a middle way. Two-thirds (66%) of those who support an outright ban on abortion say there should be no compromise. In contrast, two-thirds of those who want abortion to be generally available are ready to seek an accommodation.

                  So, to recap, it appears that the only people interested in the issue to a large degree who are unwilling to comprimise are a sliver of fundamentalists.  Obama and the democrats can live without them.

                  • Actually. you're wrong (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Jeff Fairchild

                    Pro-lifers don't use fertility clinics any more than they use abortion clinics (which is not never), and pro-lifers do protest outside of fertility clinics too, but, since its not "icky" like the blood and guts of some abortions, it just doesn't get the same appeal. Most faiths that advocate against abortion, such as the Roman Catholic Church, also advocate against use of fertility clinics for exactly the same reason, and they oppose the legality of the offending fertility treatments as well.  It's certainly not viewed as a miracle.

                    Your quote says it right: Americans favor a compromise.  I favor a compromise, and prominent pro-life leaders like Wallis have compromised.  So my only question here is, "Why doesn't pastordan just welcome them into the pro-choice tent for this election and stop beating them up about it?"

                    • I know many women who use fertility clinics (3+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Rain, Thirst, linkage

                      they are Catholic, Republican and very "pro-life"...just not "pro-life" enough to adopt an already living human (they usally blame it on their husbands who just couldn't raise "someone elses child").  And, as it relates to blood and guts, or your hand-wringing "ick factor",  they often require a "selective reduction" (that's what abortion is called when wealthy women have them so they can give birth to children with matching genetics)

                      I can't speak for PD, but I will tell you that "comprimise" on a wedge issue is stupid.  It allows others to frame the issue.  In each of your comments you sound like you assume women who have abortions are "desperate".  Let me tell you, I have 3 friends who had abortions, each within the past 2-3 years...each out of medical necessity.  The only "desperation" they felt was a sick need to chose to terminate in order to raise their already living children.  You would be shocked by the very large number of life-threatening pregnancies need to be terminated.

                      You also forget how disgusted the American public became when republicans insisted on playing doctor with the Schiavo family.

                      So, here's the deal when you're dealing with GOPers:
                      Private.Medical.Decision.
                      End of discussion.

                      • And I know women who are conservative (2+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        linkage, Jeff Fairchild

                        Catholics and who have had abortions.  (And you probably do too, somewhere.) All I am saying is that your presumption (made elsewhere too) that the church is inconsistent in opposing abortion (or stem cell research) and allowing fertility treatment is just not true.

                        I'm not shocked by the large number of life threatening pregnancies (pregnancy used to be the leading cause of death among women), and even Wallis allows for health exceptions.  

                        Finally, again, I'm not even arguing against abortion rights here.  I'm arguing against the self destructive stupidity of pastordan trying to kick pro-lifers who've agreed to vote pro-choice out of the tent because they're not pure enough.  No one is compromising anything and even pastordan admits it, so his fight now is just gratuitous and serves Republican interests. He's doing the Republicans job for them. He needs to stop.

                        The best way to preserve abortion rights is to elect Obama. And the best way to elect Obama, is to have the largest most unified tent on election day. This isn't the time to pick fights with fellow Democrats over issues that can have no conceivable policy consequence, which is the case with this discussion.  That's the end of the story.

            • What Rain and Liturgygeek said. (5+ / 0-)

              Thing is, I am not quite sure you're framing the issue correctly.  As Liturgygeek said, there are, really, more than those positions out there.  Your rubric of the answers may be too simplistic and overly influenced by your point of view.  And that doesn't even get into the real questions, which aren't "what was their response" but "how were the questions as a whole framed".  There's evidence to show that how and when you ask questions in a survey has an effect on the whole.

              Plus your use of "always" sends up MAJOR warning signs.  I'm sorry, but saying "it's always been this way" isn't really a good defense.  Two hundred years ago, one could have said "we've always had slavery in the world, so we always will".  That didn't make slavery right.  It didn't make it wrong, either.  Instead, it attempted to remove the ability to make contextual evaluations from the moral equation.  Now, I don't think that slavery was ever right, personally, but I want to argue that something is right or wrong not based on what people have always thought, because they may CHANGE THEIR MIND.

              That last bit is key; polls capture a snapshot in time, and not always accurately.  Plus, if it's a poll of the nation as a whole, the South is totally gonna throw off, from an electoral college standpoint, what America really feels.

              But the Gospels do not kill people, interpreters do. -- Brock and Parker, Saving Paradise

              by Thirst on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 04:41:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              • Pew Center does tracking polls (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Thirst, linkage, Jeff Fairchild

                Ever since they started tracking it, two things have been consistent -- the majority of people support legal abortion access, and only a very small minority of people believe that abortion is morally acceptable.  You can dig back on their site for previous tracks yourself. I stand by my use of "always," but I'll sunset it after, say 20 years, if that's alright with you.

                To a politician, and those who work on campaigns, that means one thing -- keep the word abortion as far away from a candidate as possible, especially if the candidate is pro-choice.  Why did Clinton and Schumer cosy up to Casey in Pennsylvania Senate race?  Because their pros. They read rooms and count votes for a living and they're both really good at it.  They know that in order to maintain pro-choice policies they have to shed the pro-abortion image.  What pastordan is arguing here is that it's not enough to be pro-choice, like Wallis has finally come around to being. Now you have to be pro-abortion.  That's just stupidity writ large.

                Finally, anyone who thinks that Kerry's loss in 2004 was not due largely to abortion just doesn't know Ohio very well.

            • You might find (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Thirst, linkage

              this page to be useful.

    • Your statistics are wrong (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Rusty Pipes

      From the Pew research:
      Percent of people who believe abortion is:
      Morally wrong: 52%
      Morally acceptable: 12%
      NOT A MORAL ISSUE: 23%
      Depends:  11%

      The problem is that you want to present the statistics to back up your view.  The actual picture is much different.  Or perhaps you want to argue that "not a moral issue" equates to something other than opposing the idea that it is morally wrong?  Didn't think so.

      You are free to believe what you want, and you can advocate for any policy you want.  But you are not entitled to present false or incomplete data simply because it strengthens your case to do so.

      As far as a wedge issue, that same poll found that an identical percentage of Democrats and Independents thought abortion was not moral - 43%.  Meanwhile, 16% of Dems and 15% of Indies thought it was moral, 25% of Dems and 28% said it wasn't a moral issue at all, and another 13% of Dems and 12% of indies said it depends.

      The thing about coalition building is that you can't build a coalition with someone who believes you are morally wrong on their single issue of interest.  If you do manage to do so on a single-vote basis, they will feel betrayed when you revert to your core values and behave accordingly.  The MAJORITY of Democrats and Independents believe that abortion should be legal and is an acceptable moral choice in at least some instances.

      How do you build a winning coalition by abandoning the majority position?

  • More Safety Net (7+ / 0-)

    Less ideology/politics.

    I think that's what he's trying to say.  I think that's a pretty progressive position.  

    Yes, I disagree with his anti-women position as much as I possibly can.  And I want all of the people that want to control women like that to just go away.  

    But they haven't and they won't.  They're going to be there and be there and be there.  So, if we can agree on the "more safety net and less politization" position won't we be further ahead?  Won't we?

    • It's not anti-woman (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      DanielMN, linkage, Jeff Fairchild

      to believe that women can make wrong decisions, or to want to persuade women to agree with you.  Geez.  As for control: if disagreement and persuasion are controlling, then everyone who posts here is trying to "control" the other readers' opinions to some extent.  Controlling women in this case would mean preventing them from doing what they decide to do, and I see no prevention in the remarks above (except in the sense of "preventing cavities").

      • The controversy has always been about who decides (7+ / 0-)

        Wallis says he knows better than women.  He says that abortion is never necessary except when a woman's life is threatened.  He's already wrong.  

        He can't decide.  It's not his decision.

        It's always going to be a woman's decision.  She is the moral agent if moral agent there be.  It is on her.  The decision can't be taken from her except by force.  Those that would take the responsibility from women are advocating psychic/emotional violence.  No less.

        I am not aware of Wallis having argued in favor of this violence.  He did not in the post under debate.  Nor did I say he did.  But this is a very fine distinction and I can well understand those that don't appreciate such finely wrought nuance on an issue that has divided generations of Americans.

        • So wait (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Jeff Fairchild

          he's not allowed to have an opinion?  This I don't like.  Analogously, it's not my decision whether we invade Iran or not, but I damn well have an opinion about it.  I can even say "we need to stay out of Iran", but it's the President's decision to make, not mine.

          Is my analogy valid to what you're saying?

          I do sympathize with pro-choice advocates who miss the distinction, but I also want to point it out when I can.  

          • An opinion that the law should incite violence (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Thirst

            on women?  No, I don't believe he's entitled to that or ought to be allowed to act on it.

          • Bad analogy (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Rusty Pipes, Thirst, linkage

            But, if you'd like to play the strangers-with-opinions-regarding-medical-care-for-women-and-girls-game...(a close relation to "What Would Sen.Frist Do!")

            Today one of my daughter's needs an Xray (I "think"...I dunno, maybe I just "feel" it-you decide).  Should I start with her pediatrician?  I'd have to pay $20 to find out she needs a specialist anyway, maybe...you decide.  Should I go to the ER and use the doctor there (who I like) but isn't on my insurance plan?  Should I ask for a hard cast or the velcro soft?  How compliant is my daughter? (you decide!)  Does she have any special needs? (let's ask Jim Wallace!)  What if it's near a growth plate?  How should we use PT to encourage better healing of this recurring growth plate injury?  Will her type 1 diabetes impact her circulation to her hand?  Should I even bother going to a medically trained specialist when there is a cadre of helpful, men-strangers who "have an opinion"?

            Whew!  What a relief!  Turns out I'm in that small minority of women who would rather have a man make her daily choices because being taken care of is easier than taking responsibility for my decisions.

  • Am I missing something here? (7+ / 0-)

    Pastordan: This is everything that's wrong with the argument that Democrats could reach untold numbers of voters if they'd only bend a little on abortion...

    Wallis:

    Then the platform says the Democratic Party "also strongly supports access to comprehensive affordable family planning services and age-appropriate sex education which empower people to make informed choices and live healthy lives. We also recognize that such health care and education help reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and thereby also reduce the need for abortions."

    ...

    There is a "parallelism of choice" here in the Democratic platform that is a good and new direction that will make many people feel more welcome. The party is now on record in "strongly" supporting both a woman's right to choose abortion or to decide to have her child with promised support, creating common ground in agreeing for the need to reduce abortions.

    It is a common-sense approach that could unite the vast majority of Americans around a goal that leverages support for women, instead of coercion, to dramatically reduce the number of abortions in America.

    Dan, Wallis isn't asking the Dems to bend a little on abortion.  He's saying they're already in a perfectly satisfactory place.  He's giving his freakin' seal of approval to the Dem position.

    Is this one of those situations where you aren't going to take 'yes' for an answer?

    • He's making the best (5+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Rusty Pipes, Sharoney, colleen, Thirst, linkage

      of his defeat on the platform. He's trying to put lipstick on the pig by insisting that the Democratic party has made room for people like him. Well, there always was. But the point is that he wants more like this. If only they'd say this, if only they'd do this, it'd be just perfect...

      • FWIW (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Thirst, linkage, Jeff Fairchild

        So one of the problems I was having with your diary was thinking that perhaps you were overreacting, because, sure Wallis' attitude is patronizing, but the quote comes from a comment in response to a pro-lifer.  There, Wallis is trying to convince mostly liberal pro-lifers to vote for Democrats.

        For the most part, the article the comment is attached to is better.  On re-reading it, however, (especially viewed in the perspective that Wallis is trying to put the best face on his platform losses), I'm uncomfortable with his conclusions:

        Republicans have long made a strong opposition to abortion a central issue in their platforms and campaigns. Yet their symbolic commitment to making abortion illegal, even with a Republican in power, hasn't made any change in the rate of abortions in America. Religious leaders should also now urge the Republican Party to move forward. It's not enough to affirm their traditional support for making abortion illegal; they should also adopt the policies on reducing abortions. The bottom line for many Christians is how to save unborn lives.

        Of course, it is now up to the Democratic candidate to interpret the platform and shape the issue. In an interview with Christianity Today, Barack Obama said, "I do think that those who diminish the moral elements of the decision aren't expressing the full reality of it."

        Acknowledging that abortion is a moral issue, no matter what side you are on, is a way to respect the moral convictions of both sides, and begin to find some common ground. We could truly make reducing the abortion rate in America a nonpartisan issue and a bipartisan cause. It is a common-sense approach that could unite the vast majority of Americans around a goal that leverages support for women, instead of coercion, to dramatically reduce the number of abortions in America.

        So, have pro-choice Democrats just agreed with Wallis that abortion is a "moral issue" or is he just trying to put the best possible spin on the platform (and his interpretation of the nominee)?

        When I fall on my face with my knees to the rising sun, oh Lord, have mercy on me.

        by Rusty Pipes on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 12:35:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  • The problem we get to (10+ / 0-)

    is that  the morning after pill becomes a "moral decision," & birth control pills  become a "moral decision," & condoms become a "moral decision." Is it necessary for these to be moral decisions? Or can they  be the practical choices of someone managing a personal sexuality? The religious right - including Wallis -  believes that everything having to do with sex involves some sort of moral decision.

    "There ain't no sanity clause." Chico Marx http://wfmu.org/playlists/RX

    by Asbury Park on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 11:24:12 AM PDT

    • I see where you're coming from (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Aunt Em, grada3784, linkage, Lihtox

      but I don't think the solution is that simple.  Even practicality is a moral decision -- it implies an already defined model of better to worse onto which an action can be mapped.  Even without relying on religion or belief in God, which I think you are referring to, a moral framework of some sort underlies all, even mundane, sexual acts.  

    • And before long, sexual orientation becomes ... (9+ / 0-)

      ... a moral "decision."

      Faith is less about having answers and more about engaging our own story & weaving it together with the stories of others, in community.

      by The Werewolf Prophet on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 12:00:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      • Well (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        grada3784, linkage, Lihtox

        for most not the "orientation" but the action that follows is the moral decision.

        We do not have to act on the various orientations (sexual and otherwise) we have as humans. How we choose to act on them is where moral agency comes in.

        To find out about me: http://braincrampsforgod.blogspot.com/2009/09/about-me.html

        by JCHFleetguy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 12:08:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • Here's the evidence (6+ / 0-)

          for what I wrote above. The religious right places a moral border  into areas of sexuality where I don't consider morality  a matter for their concern, or a concern at all.  So I'm forced to  say, "Hey, get that fence outta my space." Because one asks them about this  "moral agency" stuff & one finds out that they're referring not to abuse or exploitation or anything criminal but to common consensual acts one hadn't  even considered a matter of moral choice. How could I be so sinful  as to do THAT! Which used to be illegal even if one was married.

          "There ain't no sanity clause." Chico Marx http://wfmu.org/playlists/RX

          by Asbury Park on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 12:41:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        • yes, but whereas Wallis... (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          grada3784, Thirst, linkage

          might say that the moral decision to act on one's (same-sex) sexual orientation is not necessarily wrong, Wallis takes a different tack when it comes to abortion, basically saying it's seldom if ever "needed" (as HE defines that term, not as the women in the situation define it), and pretty bad even then.

          (Note that I'm purely speculating on Wallis' views on homosexuality.)

        • The arguement (4+ / 0-)

          that you "don't have to act" has always seemed somehow disingenuous to me, when I hear it.  I'm not sure I can articulate it, but it always sounds like the anti-gay crowd is saying, "It's O.K to be gay if you simply surrender your humanity and corresponding sexuality...and it just so happens that heterosexuals don't have to surrender their humanity".  

          I don't mean to attack you, JCH.  I mention it because I hear that phrase often and it just rubs me the wrong way.  It seems like an offshoot of "Love the sinner;hate the sin" which is often translated into "love the sinner...no, not really, it's O.K. to hate them because who they are is inherently sinful"

          • well (0 / 0)

            that assumes that having sex is essential to our humanity - and I am not sure that is true.

            However, the point is that good or bad, there is still a decision made and a moral choice: none of us are slaves to our various "orientations". Not me toward pornography, or attractions to women other than my wife, or the thief, or the easy liar, etc.

            We can, in the words of Paul, "take every thought captive". I am not saying that folks should or shouldn't - just that their desires do not run their life or control their behavior. There will does.

            To find out about me: http://braincrampsforgod.blogspot.com/2009/09/about-me.html

            by JCHFleetguy on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 08:25:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            • I can agree (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              JCHFleetguy

              that our desires cannot run our lives.

              Where I disagree:  homosexuality is something you're born with; like blue eyes or red hair.  I'm not sure that things like extra-marital affairs or preference within the option of being a sexual being is an inborn, genetic characteristic (although, who knows? I've only had one cup of coffee-yikes)

              I do think that God made us sexual beings.

              • I do not think this is a given (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                lam2b2g

                homosexuality is something you're born with; like blue eyes or red hair.  I'm not sure that things like extra-marital affairs or preference within the option of being a sexual being is an inborn, genetic characteristic

                I think that human beings come out of that formative birth - 5 years old period with their basic personalities formed for the rest of their lives. This is also a period few can remember any real part of.

                By the age of 6-8, I think there are all sorts of "orientations" that have been formed that those folks will refer to as "being that way as long as I can remember".

                Whatever has happened to us to form us in that early period - we still can fight those those we need to fight so that we are not controlled by our "nature"

                To find out about me: http://braincrampsforgod.blogspot.com/2009/09/about-me.html

                by JCHFleetguy on Sun Aug 24, 2008 at 08:16:43 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      • Oh, and I have been talking about us again (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        grada3784, Thirst, linkage

        brother - tell me how far off this is

        To find out about me: http://braincrampsforgod.blogspot.com/2009/09/about-me.html

        by JCHFleetguy on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 12:19:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      • For all too many, Wolfie, (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Thirst, linkage

        it already is.

        Beware the beast Man. Of all creation, he alone kills his brother for sport.

        by grada3784 on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 03:36:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    • Everything has a moral dimension (8+ / 0-)

      What bothers you about moral decisions?  It sounds like you think "moral" means "big deal" or "something to fret about", but that's not so.  Eating meat is a moral decision, but that doesn't mean I feel guilty everytime I get a cheeseburger-- I made my decision to be carnivorous, I re-evaluate it from time to time, but I don't have to think about it constantly.  Same thing with sex: there was a period during college where I had to decide just how far I wanted to go before marriage, but once I made that decision I could enjoy myself without having to re-evaluate that decision every time I saw my girlfriend.

      Or maybe I'm thinking about personal morals while you're thinking about societal morals.  Then I'd agree with you: sex is none of society's business.

  • PD gets a nod from Charlie Pierce (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Asbury Park, grada3784, Thirst, linkage

    ... on Altercation.

  • I don't know (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Asbury Park, grada3784, Thirst, linkage

    Maybe your reading to much into Wallis' statement. For many people, abortion is a moral issue. This isn't a judgement on an individual, its a judgement on an issue.

    While I do believe an individual can make a moral decision on thier own, I completely agree with an outreach program as a step to reduce abortions.

    Now, on the other side, the statement

    Yes, I agree there is never a "need" for abortion except in the case where the health of the mother is threatened

    Is problamatic. Many people in the pro-choice camp will take issue with that. However it is a statement that many centrists can live with.

    Over-all, I'd think it best to leave it at that for now, because this is a fight that social conservatives are eager to step into over the next 100 days. It seems to me, if we give them this fight, they have already taken the initiative. That will allow them to dictate the terms of the battle, which places progressives at a tactical disadvantage.

    27 and 42 = 69, six and nine equal 15 which subtracted from 42 = 27 42(27)=1134 1+1=2, and 3+4=7, taking us back to 27

    by Kozzmo on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 03:14:58 PM PDT

  • A missing word: CONTRACEPTION (6+ / 0-)

    I wonder why it never occurred to Mr Wallis as a potential form of abortion reduction. I'm guessing that it's because abortion is not in fact the ultimate evil in Wallis's worldview. That honor is reserved for consequence free sex.

    Level 6 atheist, Heretic in good company.

    by Recall on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 06:02:53 PM PDT

    • Actually not only did Contraception occur ... (5+ / 0-)

      ... to Mr. Wallis, he supports providing it, as he wrote in the blog article that he is replying to the repsonses to in the entry pastordan quotes from.  A Step Forward on Abortion  In that entry Wallis writes

      Policies that prevent unintended pregnancies through accessible family planning, including contraceptives, age-appropriate sex education-- including abstinence education--reducing teen pregnancy, economic support, accessible and affordable health care, adoption reform and incentives, are all critical and are pointed to in the platform

      Emphasis added by me

  • Hoo boy, these guys are shifting (7+ / 0-)

    to assuming that everybody believes that "life begins at conception". Wing-nut radio was all about it today. They are going to tell me when I "feel" the Quickening? The point at which, I assure you, having experienced it, that the fetus is ensouled. Bam! Just like that. Another soul inhabits the pregnant female's body.  Move over, MOMMA! How some women miss this, I have no idea, I guess it's just that they are not so in tune with either their bodies, or Spirits.
    But I'm here to tell ya that there is a definite point, The Quickening, when that little bit of intrusive, growing blob gets a life of it's own.  Oddly, 2 days before I miscarried, the Spirit fled. I have no idea what was wrong with the blob, that it could not support Spirit, but there ya have it.

    All those men have Teh Stoopid, and they must not get any more power.

    • Yes. (5+ / 0-)

      In my experience of pregnancy as well, there's a point at which there isn't someone there, and then a point where it is.

      And interestingly, the one pregnancy I miscarried felt "wrong" from the beginning.

      Mother dark and Mother bright/ All that lives, You gave life/ All life into You will go/ Endless circle we all know.

      by Alexandra Lynch on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:53:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    • This is probably unique (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Emma Snacker, grada3784, Thirst, linkage

      I do have memories from within the womb. This is because I am a twin. It was dark, and my brother was there, then he wasn't. The next memory is of a nurse walking towards me, and then everything went dark for a few years, I remember moving. (I pulled out the marking pens and scribbled on the window of the moving truck. I think it was a way of expressing my consciousness.)

      27 and 42 = 69, six and nine equal 15 which subtracted from 42 = 27 42(27)=1134 1+1=2, and 3+4=7, taking us back to 27

      by Kozzmo on Fri Aug 22, 2008 at 08:55:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  • As a woman... (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Thirst, Kozzmo, linkage, Jeff Fairchild

    ...(yes I checked and that's accurate) I have to say I'm more offended by your stand here pastordan then Wallis'. You seem to be indicating that for women to be moral agents for ourselves, that you have to protect us from the likes of Wallis, but that when you make your opinion and understandings known about what women need in this area, it isn't the same thing.  It can't be one thing in one case and another in yours. Either you both need to stop talking about what women need or feel about abortion until you get the right physical anatomy for one,  or your both have the ability to take part in the discussion (I go for the later myself).   And I guess also by your estimation, I've been voting wrong all these years as I've voted 100% for Democrats in Presidential elections and probably 95% for Democrats the  other times. And I'm more in the pro-life except in the case of a woman's  health, rape or incest camp then the pro-choice of making it legal in every case.  

    Yet if you read the blog that Wallis wrote, and not just the response to the repsonses to the blog, I found him very pro-woman, and not patriarcial.  He calls for support for all the options that would make a woman a free moral agent in decisions about pregnancy, including preventing unintended ones:

    All that is a step in the right direction: supportive of individual conscience, of the different decisions a woman can make, and of reducing the need for abortions. By supporting the fuller range of women's choice, the Democratic Party would be empowering more women, including low-income women who might like to carry their child to term for personal or moral reasons, but often lack the support to do so.

    The rate of unintended pregnancies among poor women (below 100 percent of poverty) is nearly four times that of women above 200 percent of poverty. The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level is more than four times that of women above 300 percent of the poverty level. Three-fourths of women who have an abortion say a reason is that they cannot afford a child.

    Policies and programs that focus on reducing poverty--also strong planks in the Democratic platform--would increase the economic stability of women and thus also help reduce the abortion rate. Policies that prevent unintended pregnancies through accessible family planning, including contraceptives, age-appropriate sex education-- including abstinence education--reducing teen pregnancy, economic support, accessible and affordable health care, adoption reform and incentives, are all critical and are pointed to in the platform

    So what exactly is wrong with that? How is that patriarchial, to want to make conditions better for women, making sure that they have the choices and options available before getting pregnant in order to reduce the number of women who even have to make this difficult choice?  He's not talking the standard Republican line (abstinence, just say no etc) which is the patriarchial view of woman that says that they just need better guidance or someone 'smarter' then them to direct them right.  He is saying that the Democratic position is actually more conducive both to reducing the rate of abortions, as well as pro-life, and empowers women,  for it is focused on the conditions that lead to many abortions, including preventing unintended pregnancies- such as for the pregnant teenage girl with the sort of boyfriend- or giving support so that abortion isn't something a woman feels backed into- the one with the abusive boyfriend/spouse or the woman who already has mouths that she doesn't know how to feed that you referenced.  

  • Thanks PD! Piss of Wallis! (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Thirst, linkage

    Last time I checked, the only person who knows whether a woman "needs" an abortion is that woman herself.

    I'm glad I never had to make that decision, but if I had it would have been between me, the father, and nobody else.

  • Psst! Dan? (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    lam2b2g, Thirst, linkage

    My diary is STILL bigger than yours!

    Nyah Nyah!

    <Smug Canine-Toothy Grin>

    Faith is less about having answers and more about engaging our own story & weaving it together with the stories of others, in community.

    by The Werewolf Prophet on Sat Aug 23, 2008 at 08:07:57 AM PDT

  • Brother -- (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Rain, AdamSelene

    you made my day. Jim Wallis is a sanctimonious wanker who saw a talking dog niche (liberal evangelical preacher) and has made a nice career of filling it. Neither inspiring faith nor good politics were ever part of the picture.

  • This post is a keeper (0 / 0)

    Thank you.  You state the situation very well.  This is a keeper.

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